Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country

[Ran Morrissett]

In this month's Feature Interview, Peter Thomson states that if competitors all love the host course, something is amiss. We know the angst MacKenzie felt when Cypress Point opened to unanimous acclaim as he wrote in The Spirit of St. Andrews, 'I had been so accustomed to having our best holes torn to pieces that I was actually disturbed at the lack of criticism.' Perhaps he had kept things too much under wraps?!

Thomson's words in particular reminded me of Tobacco Road and that I had never made a post about the updated profile that Joe Andriole and I created last fall. It replaced a 2004 version that suffered from small photographs, something especially silly, since Tobacco Road is just about the world's easiest course to photograph. It also engenders strong opinions to the point where two reasonable men might have more long-winded conversations on the pros and cons of this course than just about any other design with which I am familiar.

Such is what happened in October when my good friend Jerry ‘The Hammer’ Kluger beat me to the punch with a post of his own. As is the wont it seems for a Golf Digest panelist, he voiced concern about the course’s blind shots and opined they were confusing and ultimately led to long rounds. Holes like 1 and 9 are just too much, he contends, for the daily fee golfer to handle in a reasonable amount of time. Having taken many first timers there and witnessed their contorted faces on several tees/shots, I get it but so be it!  Do I go play this wildly popular course on mid-morning on Saturdays behind a bunch of Americans accustomed to pabulum? Of course not, but I did play with a friend Tuesday, April 26th, teed off early, whizzed around and had my customary great time. Living a scant 30 minutes away, I enjoy the best of both worlds: an unusual, feature rich, non-dumbed-down design with the freedom to trot up late in the afternoon, or early in the morning or off season.

Of course, the saddest event since 2004 was the passing of Mike Strantz in June, 2005. We all lost. The owners of Tobacco Road care very much about Mike and his on-going legacy. There have been no significant changes to the design since it opened in 1998 - and none are contemplated. Rather, their focus over the past several years has been on presenting the course in the best condition possible. Tees and greens were re-grassed in 2014 and there’s ongoing selective tree removal to insure proper air and light flow as well as rediscovering some lost interior views from growth over the course's first 18 years.

When it opened, many weren't sure what to make of it though it probably helped if you had experienced the fun of a Dell hole or the magic/mystery of blind shots. Today, supporters (and I mean of the staunch variety) clearly outnumber naysayers. Its grades of 7-7-6-7 in Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide fell only behind Pinehurst No.2 and Old Town in North Carolina. A few years ago, Tobacco Road famously was placed in Golf Architecture Magazine’s Architects’ Choice Top 100 Golf Courses in the World. Conversely, a few venomous naysayers tank it in the various U.S. magazine rankings.  Initially, I had high hopes for Golf Week's Modern Ranking as an agent of change/enlightenment but I have since tuned it out after their panelists/scoring system consistently failed to find a spot for Tobacco Road in their Modern Top 100. Housing tracts ahead of this gorgeous, thought-provoking core golf experience? Pleaassse!

Back to Thompson on architecture: 'I don't think anyone goes way off track and survives.' To me, Strantz was the guy who best pushed the envelope and made people re-consider what features were and weren't acceptable. Other architects have tried but their results did not constitute good golf. Put another way, I’ve seen some funky courses - once.  Meanwhile, I have played Tobacco Road ~40 times and eagerly look forward to the 41st round.

In a bizarre twist of logic, the naysayers help me think that Thompson would concur that Strantz did something right. While it's nice to imagine/conjure up that Thomson's might agree with my own assessment, it doesn't really matter: I have had too many fun rounds at Tobacco Road - and witnessed too many memorable moments - to ever doubt its merits.

Here is the update:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/tobacco-road-nc-usa/

Best,

[Ronald Montesano]

Never dull, enamored of hyperbole, unlike most Americans, who are accustomed to this:

pab·lum

ˈpabləm/

noun
noun: pabulum


bland or insipid intellectual fare, entertainment, etc.; pap.



Thank you, friend Ran, only a vowel away, for updating your ToeRoad/TerbackyHighway profile. Whenever I'm down your way, it's a sin and a sad day if I don't go 'round the road. It's the site of my nearly-award-winning photo of the 14th, where I came as close as I ever will to scoring a one on a hole larger than miniature golf. I love the blind shots, I love the unfair shots, I love the speed slots, the cauldron par three and the heroic requests.

I disagree that the 6th is kin to the 13th at Merion East. From my(opic) point of vantage, it is a lost Quarry hole from that layout. I'm glad that you liked it, though.

I'm surprised that you skipped from 8 to 10. I don't know big words, but I know big golf, and Tobacco Road's 9th is big golf in the biggest way. It asks for everything that the tee ball does on 18. Twice a round is all right by me.


I did find you a typo to edit, should you be interested. On discussing the 11th, you write "This gambling three shorter" Honest to the goodness that filled my grandmother, I could photoshop Kevin Lynch into that photo you took, deep in the bowels of that wasteland. Every time I've played the Road, he tries and fails and tries again to clumb the mountain. If that ain't humanity, what could be?

Number fifteen rewards the woebegone slice from the right-hander. I'd love to know how many have stood on that tee, hit a slapshot that goes farther starboard than forward, and ends up in the middle of one of the fairways. Unabashed and unanticipated joy ensues, inevitably.

Your photo of 16, were it in focus, would be a prize-winner. It's simple and shows the massive ascent required, contrasting the ant people below with the rear flag position.


The king is dead, long live the king.

[Tom_Doak]

When it opened, many weren't sure what to make of it though it probably helped if you had experienced the fun of a Dell hole or the magic/mystery of blind shots. Today, supporters (and I mean of the staunch variety) clearly outnumber naysayers. Its grades of 7-7-6-7 in Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide fell only behind Pinehurst No.2 and Old Town in North Carolina. A few years ago, Tobacco Road famously was placed in Golf Architecture Magazine’s Architects’ Choice Top 100 Golf Courses in the World. Conversely, a few venomous naysayers tank it in the various U.S. magazine rankings.  Initially, I had high hopes for Golf Week's Modern Ranking as an agent of change/enlightenment but I have since tuned it out after their panelists/scoring system consistently failed to find a spot for Tobacco Road in their Modern Top 100. Housing tracts ahead of this gorgeous, thought-provoking core golf experience? Pleaassse!

 Put another way, I’ve seen some funky courses - once.  Meanwhile, I have played Tobacco Road ~40 times and eagerly look forward to the 41st round.

Well, Ran, you do live a lot closer to it than to most.


Note that the four grades in The Confidential Guide do not imply that any of us would necessarily rank the course among the top 100 in America.  [You managed not to say if you do.]  I doubt that I would myself, because there are several holes I don't like at all.  However I give it a 7 in the book because it is so different, and unlike some of Mike Strantz's other work, he kept it short enough that the difficult holes give you the option of playing short if you don't think you can hit the shot.


Also, please don't over-promote the "core golf experience."  There are already too many panelists who will let a handful of houses stand in the way of recognizing an outstanding design.

[Mike Sweeney]

Thanks for the update. I just played the front 9 at Caledonia in April as I had tight timing. The Mike Stranz tour will continue on for me. Love them all so far including TR.

[Jon Cavalier]

Whenever someone headed to North Carolina asks me if they should play Tobacco Road, I show them this photo:

If they love the idea of being challenged by shots like this, they'll love the course (as I do).

[Phil McDade]

Enjoyed reading the profile, but have to say the pictures are among the lowest-quality I've seen in a post-2010 Ran profile on here. Too bad; everything I've heard about the course highlights its visual appeal.


Jon C. -- do you have a thread of TR lurking somewhere in your cabinet?

[Ronald Montesano]

The reason that some are low-quality is that they were original, low-res photos that were expanded to fill a larger space. Luckily for us, Jon C. is the only good photographer on this discussion board (he wrote, annoyed by the insinuation.)


Not a tour, but go here http://s46.photobucket.com/user/buffalogolfer/library/Tobacco%20Road%201?sort=4&page=1 and here http://s46.photobucket.com/user/buffalogolfer/library/Tobacco%20Road%202?sort=4&page=1 to see more images of a different quality.

[Sam Kestin]

Great profile of one of my favorite courses anywhere. I really cannot get enough of this golf course. Almost every hole is strategically stimulating--but standouts include the first, fourth, fifth, eleventh, thirteenth and fifteenth. The setting around the pond and the beautiful greensite at fourteen is exceptional as well.


There's also something refreshing about playing a golf course that is just so different from most of everything else I've ever played. I have a hard time coming up with a (non-Strantz) analogous experience to this place.


I also love how different it can be setup day-to-day. The hole locations drive the challenge--with wild swings in difficultly between one and another. For example--the one-shot eighth hole with the hole located down on the bottom is a very strong birdie opportunity. Holes located in the back right corner are another matter entirely--with about another 25 yards (or more) added to the shot with a target area that has shrunk dramatically. Almost all the one shot holes have wildly divergent hole locations--thanks in no small part to large and dramatic putting surfaces with distinctly separate sections.


I wish there were more courses like it and the loss of Mike Strantz (to me) was a tremendous loss to the world of course architecture. Some wrote his designs off as goofy golf--but I think a lot of people in that camp simply overlooked the underlying strategy that made his facilities what they are. Beyond the obvious tragedy of the loss to his family/friends--the world of golf course architecture will miss the extra 20-30 years we wish we could have gotten from Mike.


It's perhaps a fair criticism that his courses can punish the higher-handicapper, but I'm not sure it isn't completely reasonable to have some courses that are more inclusive of the play by the dub and some that simply aren't. I bet Pine Valley would be an absolute nightmare for someone who already couldn't break 90/100. Oakmont would be a similar story. Winged Foot too. Does it take away from these amazing venues that they would be a complete struggle for a hack?

[Phil McDade]

Luckily for us, Jon C. is the only good photographer on this discussion board (he wrote, annoyed by the insinuation.)

Well, sorry if folks were bothered by my suggestion. I simply thought Jon C. -- having posted on this thread (right before my post) a beautiful picture of the course -- might have more; sorry if offenses were taken.


Yes, Ronald -- lots of folks take pictures of golf courses and post them on this site; I happen to be one of them. Jon C. is the gold standard, at least in my book, for photo threads. Thus my question......

[Ronald Montesano]

Only one guy was offended and that was me. I'm a sensitive soul, though I seem thick-skinned.


I blew off some steam. I'll admit that I hadn't noticed your images in the past, so I'll make a special effort to look for them in the future (and look back at some previous contributions that you have made.)


Jon's work is excellent, no doubt. We are fortunate to have the shooters we have in this DB.

[Kalen Braley]

A quick question about the course.

I've never played it, only seen several pics, read descriptions, and spent time on Google Earth looking at aerials.  But it seems to me, if you play it conservative/safe its possible to shoot a good score.  Is this true or does the conservative lines give you difficult angles into the greens?

Thanks!

[Philip Hensley]

Yes, mainly because you (hopefully) keep big numbers off the card. There are 4-5 holes where going for it is so tempting but if you don't make it then you are making a big number.

A quick question about the course.

I've never played it, only seen several pics, read descriptions, and spent time on Google Earth looking at aerials.  But it seems to me, if you play it conservative/safe its possible to shoot a good score.  Is this true or does the conservative lines give you difficult angles into the greens?

Thanks!

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, Tobacco Road scores extremely high in the "wow" or "isn't that cool!" factor.   Which makes it a wonderful experience.


I really enjoyed it and hope to be back someday.


(If it only weren't for that gawd-awful slow foursome ahead of us!)

[BCowan]

The course is no more then a 5.  Some great par 5s and and a handful of holes that lack strategic value #2 and #9 for example.  To have TR ranked ahead of mid pines and pine needles is laughable but then im not suprised when Tom gives low grades to Ravisloe.  TR is form over function.  It's a course one should play on LSD or have a high stakes skins game on.  I think all one needs is blown out bunkers ans a course built on sand to get the gcaers praise.  Just 2 cents

Ps- Joe Bausch is the gold standard

[Thomas Dai]

I've enjoyed reading this profile and seeing the photos.


From the photos, and that's all I've got to go on, I'm reminded of this course profile from a while back -


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49596.msg0.html - and the sister thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49004.0.html


Atb

[Ran Morrissett]

To everyone who sent me a PM suggesting the coloring was off, thank you. I have just 'fixed' all the photos and made them less bad. Please hit refresh. Nonetheless, perhaps I shouldn’t have keep photographing in the rain, though rain or shine, Jon's will always be better.

Tom, I think you will find I am open-minded to housing courses. In fact, my third favorite course of yours is a housing course in Montana that I just wrote it up as a Gourmet Choice for Volume 3. It is odd to see you make a post referencing ‘Top 100 ranking’ as some mystical milestone – after all,  your writings have helped us all move beyond such a simplistic approach. Obviously, the grades in your book represent a different measurement than top 100 blah blah blah and not many courses of any age will get three 7s – kudos to the daringly different Tobacco Road for being one of them.

Kalen, You are correct - people often beat their handicap here helped by wide fairways and the course not killing you on length. They leave feeling like they accomplished something too, as the hazards are so dramatic.

Best,

[Sean_A]

Ran

Thanks for the update.  Don't spend too much time worrying about pix...it makes litte difference as the prose is the star of the show.  The pix do their job by informing the prose. 

Tobacco Road was one of the first courses I sought out in the US...just about the same time I joined GolfclubAtlas in 2004.  Of the three courses I played on that trip, The Road was easily the most impressive not only because of the daring design, but also because of the visuals...The Road was a course of its place...which is something Pine Needles (straight after a reno), Mid Pines (pre-reno) and S Pines all failed miserably to achieve.  Mid Pines has since rectified this issue with great success.  Be that as it may, none of these Ross efforts are in the ballpark of The Road for pushing the boat out.  Sure, the course has it faults with too many wide-not deep greens, a few very awkward walks, the crazy walk from 17 green back past 17 tee, a green or two which is ott and perhaps most of all, an over-watering issue (which is the only reason I give it a Doak 6).  Yet, the positives of The Road outnumber the negatives and slap a smile on the face of any golfer with a hint of soul. 

The Road is one of those courses I use to measure opinions (The Scared 9 another).  If a golfer can't see the positives of The Road I will forever take their opinions on what makes a course interesting and fun with a large pinch of salt.   

Thanks again Ran.

Ciao

[BCowan]

Standing on the 18th tee at TR reminded me of weapons qualification on a range in the Army with a suspended Desmond Muirhead tee.  It was exhilarating in a peaceful way, make pars not war...  However TR's land is so great that Jerry Matthews could of built a Doak 8+. 

[Mike_Young]

The MS courses have always interested me.  I can appreciate the artistic ability but I don't ever get the purpose.  Using furniture as an example....I like Stickley ( arts and craft style) much more than I do French Provencial and yet I can appreciate the craftsmanship in each.  And I sense that Stickley will prevail over a longer period of time.    I'm in the school that thinks the jagged edge bunker is a short lived fad for most courses.  Time will tell...

[Peter Pallotta]

I have to defer to the many here who have played it and report that the golf is good, ie that it offers fun and challenge and choices; and certainly 6s and 7s from the CG panel suggests that it is a very good course indeed. But alas, it must forever remain a very good golf course that I will never play; there is on display there too much of *everything* for my tastes, and certainly too much visual stimuli for my already-over saturated psyche. Also, I can give it no 'points' for being different and standing out from amongst the Carolina Pinehursts and Needles and Dormies; a heavily treed parkland course in Dubai would also stand out, as would a TPC Sawgrass in the middle of the Cotswolds. I grant that better men than me have learned to appreciate it, and it saddens me a bit to know for certain that the likes of Sean A and Tom D will (if the didn't already) now take all my views about golf courses with a large grain of salt.

[Kalen Braley]

AS Matt Ward always used to say something to the effect of....

"There is more than Steak and Potatoes when it comes to golf, sometimes its nice to have Thai Food"

I suspect TR is a nice spicey curry....not for everyone, but still delish! 

[Sean_A]

I grant that better men than me have learned to appreciate it, and it saddens me a bit to know for certain that the likes of Sean A and Tom D will (if the didn't already) now take all my views about golf courses with a large grain of salt.

One has to figure out whose opinion to trust when figuring out where to play and polarizing courses are the perfect test...thats life in the big city. 

Ciao 

[Ronald Montesano]

I have to defer to the many here who have played it and report that the golf is good, ie that it offers fun and challenge and choices; and certainly 6s and 7s from the CG panel suggests that it is a very good course indeed. But alas, it must forever remain a very good golf course that I will never play; there is on display there too much of *everything* for my tastes, and certainly too much visual stimuli for my already-over saturated psyche. Also, I can give it no 'points' for being different and standing out from amongst the Carolina Pinehursts and Needles and Dormies; a heavily treed parkland course in Dubai would also stand out, as would a TPC Sawgrass in the middle of the Cotswolds. I grant that better men than me have learned to appreciate it, and it saddens me a bit to know for certain that the likes of Sean A and Tom D will (if the didn't already) now take all my views about golf courses with a large grain of salt.

Group hug for Pietro. Diversity is the Thai spice of life. I like Pietro's opinions on the edge of maudlin, but not swimming in the pool.


TR on the ground is different from TR in photos, I believe we of fortune would say. It does have much of everything, but in front of you is the fair way, with ample width to navigate the everything. I'll say this for TR, and it keeps me coming back when in the 'hood: I get whiplash looking behind on nearly every green, as I want to practice putts from every puttable point on those moguled greens (so I look back, hoping that no one is waiting to hit.)

[Tom_Doak]

Standing on the 18th tee at TR reminded me of weapons qualification on a range in the Army with a suspended Desmond Muirhead tee.  It was exhilarating in a peaceful way, make pars not war...  However TR's land is so great that Jerry Matthews could of built a Doak 8+.

Standing on the 18th tee at TR reminded me of Pine Valley, as I think it was supposed to.  And your last sentence is insane.  Jerry Matthews would've put three mounds around every green and got to half the score you suggest.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I think you will find I am open-minded to housing courses. In fact, my third favorite course of yours is a housing course in Montana that I just wrote it up as a Gourmet Choice for Volume 3. It is odd to see you make a post referencing ‘Top 100 ranking’ as some mystical milestone – after all,  your writings have helped us all move beyond such a simplistic approach. Obviously, the grades in your book represent a different measurement than top 100 blah blah blah and not many courses of any age will get three 7s – kudos to the daringly different Tobacco Road for being one of them.

Huh?  My post was a response to your opening post, in which you referred to two specific top-100 rankings as a measure of Tobacco Road, and to "housing tracts" in a negative light:

Its grades of 7-7-6-7 in Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide fell only behind Pinehurst No.2 and Old Town in North Carolina. A few years ago, Tobacco Road famously was placed in Golf Architecture Magazine’s Architects’ Choice Top 100 Golf Courses in the World. Conversely, a few venomous naysayers tank it in the various U.S. magazine rankings.  Initially, I had high hopes for Golf Week's Modern Ranking as an agent of change/enlightenment but I have since tuned it out after their panelists/scoring system consistently failed to find a spot for Tobacco Road in their Modern Top 100. Housing tracts ahead of this gorgeous, thought-provoking core golf experience? Pleaassse!

Do you really forget what you wrote that fast?