"A course that is so difficult that the highest handicaps..."

[Sven Nilsen]

Could clearing the hill at 3 Old Mac be a chore for someone who hits it 100 yards on the ground?

Will,


I have yet to see someone not be able to get over the hill on 3, especially if they're playing from the Yellow Tees.  Sometimes its the second shot, but that's probably "par" for a 36.


Right now its a bit easier, as the hillside itself is marked as GUR. 


And if that's who we're designing courses for, I don't see how your on-the-ground player even makes it to the 3rd hole at Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails or Pac Dunes.


Sven

[Paul Stockert]

Our hypothetical 36 handicapper would have to improve 12 strokes to even be allowed on the Old Course right?  24 max handicap can play there as a visitor. Not sure if members are permitted more leeway, but that's an interesting wrinkle to the conversation I think.  Most would agree it's not a 'poor' course but they don't even allow the highest handicaps to start, much less finish. 

[V. Kmetz]

Peter Thompson likely came off a round at Briarcliff, which besides being the most ridiculous course, the most unnatural faux course, the hilliest course, the course with the most masonry work nearby play, the course with the most holes with OB on one side and water hazard on the other, the course with a semi-blind par 3 to an island green set in a waterfall basin, the course with four forced approach and five forced drive carries over glacially-cut ravines and man-made ponds rimmed with blond, stone estate walls...


is not only the worst course I've ever seen, but certainly a course that makes you wonder how a 24+ HCP or most ladies' country club golfers could ever finish with a standard supply of balls.


I caddied for two fellows this past weekend...one a 25 and one a 27, who had a dandy time shooting 92 and 97 respectively that, had they played in the same manner at Briarcliff...would not have finished the round, via ball supply or disgust. Technically they could "finish" because ESC lets them pick up at 6, 7 or 8, but I think Thompson's (and mine) meaning is that if they had to play a strict medal tournament format and hole out or DQ, their "finishing" would be in jeopardy.


(Hand to God, my third and what will be final time playing Briarcliff five years ago, my earnest but wild 12 HCP friend Joe barely finished by playing a dull orange Top-Flite from the depths of what was once his father's golf bag on #18...and we had to look for it well beyond 5 minutes in the wild hay right of the 18th fairway...before that he was playing a scuffy ULTRA, a balata RAM, and the last ball I gave him--a Slazenger, from the late 90s...he literally lost a museum exhibit of balls in the penultimate three holes...)


as to the impact or context of design, I think if you give a high handicapper strategic options, he/she will normally take best advanatge of it they can...if you confront them with an abundance of penal consequences, its "BIPSIC," heroic opportunities can stimulate them, sure, but there had better be an avenue to be a coward too, or else it's just a penal thing...

cheers
vk

[James Brown]

I think this is a good example of the "can you play the course with a putter?" test.

[Keith OHalloran]

Could clearing the hill at 3 Old Mac be a chore for someone who hits it 100 yards on the ground?

Will,


I have yet to see someone not be able to get over the hill on 3, especially if they're playing from the Yellow Tees.  Sometimes its the second shot, but that's probably "par" for a 36.


Right now its a bit easier, as the hillside itself is marked as GUR. 


And if that's who we're designing courses for, I don't see how your on-the-ground player even makes it to the 3rd hole at Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails or Pac Dunes.


Sven

Sven,
Does the really high handicapper (who we are discussing here) visit Bandon Dunes? Honest question, seems like a long way to go for someone who is that bad at golf.

[Sven Nilsen]

Keith:


I've had people say its their first 18 hole round of golf ever, and then proceed to whiff their first two swings on the first tee.


There are all types, but I've yet to see someone play an entire course on the ground. 


Sven

[Eric Smith]

seems like a long way to go for someone who is that bad at golf.

Keith,


Surely bad golfers live in Oregon just like they do in New York or Tennessee!

[Jim Franklin]

The Idaho Club would seem to be a candidate for this category.  its a beautiful course, but an absolute beast with forced water carries on nearly every hole and some difficult shots requirements on several holes.

I've played it 3 times as a 16 or better.... and never sniffed breaking 100.  I played one round with a legit 2 and he shot 85...

Hey putz, you played with me and I broke 80.

[BCrosby]

I've had people say its their first 18 hole round of golf ever, and then proceed to whiff their first two swings on the first tee.

And you were double-bagging for them? I would love to have seen your face.


Bob

[Sven Nilsen]

Bob:


It still beats sitting through a five hour conference call on a sunny Chicago summer afternoon.


All the best,


Sven

[Kalen Braley]

The Idaho Club would seem to be a candidate for this category.  its a beautiful course, but an absolute beast with forced water carries on nearly every hole and some difficult shots requirements on several holes.

I've played it 3 times as a 16 or better.... and never sniffed breaking 100.  I played one round with a legit 2 and he shot 85...

Hey putz, you played with me and I broke 80.

Jim,

I wasn't talking about you....you killed it that trip as I recall with some other terrific numbers you put up. 

The guy I played with was a local Spokane buddy on a different visit.

[Andrew Buck]

What does he mean by finish? Can a high handicapper finish Pine Valley?

That's a course that seems to get a pass on this site for many items that group collectively shows disdain for, namely forced carries and trees.

[BCrosby]

It still beats sitting through a five hour conference call on a sunny Chicago summer afternoon.

Sven

Believe me. I get it.

Bob

[Keith OHalloran]

seems like a long way to go for someone who is that bad at golf.

Keith,


Surely bad golfers live in Oregon just like they do in New York or Tennessee!

I am a bad golfer and live in NY. My point is that Bandon is not cheap, and it is not in a metropolitan area. I was wondering if the person that Sven described actually makes the financial and time commitment to get there. I will take his word for it as he has infinite more experience than I do. I can tell you that more beginners play at Eisenhower Park than at Bethpage Black. Time and effort dictate such.

[Dave Doxey]

 What is so important about “finishing”?


 A high handicapper can find enjoyment by simply playing.  After a hole ceases to be enjoyable, simply pick up and move on to start anew at the next hole.  Starting at the tee and “finishing” in the hole 18 times is unnecessary to find enjoyment in the game or interest in a course.

 
It's a shame that taking golf too seriously can rob one of the simple enjoyment of the game.  Many high handicappers get more enjoyment from the game than some scratch players.

[Eric Smith]

seems like a long way to go for someone who is that bad at golf.

Keith,


Surely bad golfers live in Oregon just like they do in New York or Tennessee!

I am a bad golfer and live in NY. My point is that Bandon is not cheap, and it is not in a metropolitan area. I was wondering if the person that Sven described actually makes the financial and time commitment to get there. I will take his word for it as he has infinite more experience than I do. I can tell you that more beginners play at Eisenhower Park than at Bethpage Black. Time and effort dictate such.

Keith,

When I worked at Palmetto Dunes Resort on Hilton Head, my buddy Graham who was also on staff gave a playing lesson to a guy who told him before they got started that he "swings cross-handed and they ain't no switching me back". I believe it was around $100 for a round back then (1994-95) and there were plenty of 5-6 hour rounds with folks who were terrible jamming up the courses. Beginners and 30 handicappers enjoy the nice golf resorts too.

[Sven Nilsen]

Keith:


Even bad golfers have bucket lists. 


For the "non-golfers," the corporate junkets bring them out in droves.


And for some people, money really isn't the issue.  Can you imagine how much the top-100 seekers on this site have spent, and how much time they've invested getting to those credit card swipes?  From my perspective, I'd have a hard time justifying the time and the money.  But theirs is a different life, and a different set of priorities.


One of my favorite stories from the last year involves a group of guys who played a bunch of golf together back home.  One of them, we'll call him Bubs, had recently been diagnosed with a brain tumor.  The entire group came out to Bandon, including Bubs' sons, nephews and brother.  There was plenty of bad golf played on that trip, including from Bubs himself whose physical decline was clearly evident.


I don't begrudge them one second of searching for errant tee shots or raking bunkers.  And I'm sure not one of them cared one iota what it cost to bring Bubs out on his dream trip and to hear him say "go git one now" a few more times.


Sven

[Keith OHalloran]

seems like a long way to go for someone who is that bad at golf.

Keith,


Surely bad golfers live in Oregon just like they do in New York or Tennessee!

I am a bad golfer and live in NY. My point is that Bandon is not cheap, and it is not in a metropolitan area. I was wondering if the person that Sven described actually makes the financial and time commitment to get there. I will take his word for it as he has infinite more experience than I do. I can tell you that more beginners play at Eisenhower Park than at Bethpage Black. Time and effort dictate such.

Keith,

When I worked at Palmetto Dunes Resort on Hilton Head, my buddy Graham who was also on staff gave a playing lesson to a guy who told him before they got started that he "swings cross-handed and they ain't no switching me back". I believe it was around $100 for a round back then (1994-95) and there were plenty of 5-6 hour rounds with folks who were terrible jamming up the courses. Beginners and 30 handicappers enjoy the nice golf resorts too.

Eric,
As you and Sven have eloquently pointed out, my perceptions were wrong. It just seems like a place like HHI with beaches, bikes, shopping, etc would attract a "resort" guest who will dabble in golf. Brandon is golf and walking only.  I am surprised that so many beginners would make the trip. I run a golf trip of 16 every Oct, and we stay away from Bandon because we have 4 guys that golf once a year and would not want to walk and play bad golf for 3 days. Maybe I should re think that!

[Mac Plumart]

What is so important about “finishing”?


 A high handicapper can find enjoyment by simply playing.  After a hole ceases to be enjoyable, simply pick up and move on to start anew at the next hole.  Starting at the tee and “finishing” in the hole 18 times is unnecessary to find enjoyment in the game or interest in a course.

 
It's a shame that taking golf too seriously can rob one of the simple enjoyment of the game.  Many high handicappers get more enjoyment from the game than some scratch players.

In my opinion, this is the answer. A 36 handicapper who loves the game, obviously, values different aspects of the game than a scratch type of player.

I play with a number of bad golfers. If they get in a tough bunker and can't get out, they just throw it out eventually and move on.

Also, their method for calculating their score is "unique." 

In fact, I played Oakmont with a guy who's not very good (not a 36, but maybe a 20). He loved it. He could "finish". I'd say the lack of water and ball losing hazards had a lot to do with it.

[Tom_Doak]

Our hypothetical 36 handicapper would have to improve 12 strokes to even be allowed on the Old Course right?  24 max handicap can play there as a visitor. Not sure if members are permitted more leeway, but that's an interesting wrinkle to the conversation I think.  Most would agree it's not a 'poor' course but they don't even allow the highest handicaps to start, much less finish.

That rule was brought out to keep Asian golfers who have no experience on course from signing up for tee times.  In fact, The Old Course is one of the most playable of all courses for beginners.  When I caddied there, I did one loop for a group where the "fourth" was a 21-year-old girl and her sister, taking turns playing the holes.  Their parents were good players and they'd learned to hit balls when they were young, but they had never played a round of golf in their lives.  The older sister parred the 18th at The Old Course, and almost made birdie.  As long as I could keep them out of the bunkers, they were fine, and if they got in a deep one they usually picked up.  And they had a great time! [proving Dave Doxey's point]


I always think about my mother, who in her 60's could barely get the ball airborne.  She hated to hold people up, but otherwise she just loved to be outdoors on a beautiful course.  When I was 15 and didn't have my driver's license yet, she drove me to Bethpage and we played the Black course together, way before the renovation of course.  I don't remember if she finished many holes but it is still a fond memory.


The new course at Forest Dunes can't be played completely along the ground, but close ... there are only about five holes where the short grass doesn't run all the way from tee to green.

[Sam Kestin]

I certainly think that from a financial perspective--it would make the most sense to strive to ensure that a public facility was playable for nearly all golfers across the wide spectrum of skill level. I can understand why, when building a track that is slated to be open to public play,  it would stand to reason the developers wouldn't want a facility that turns off a significant portion of the golfing population (most golfers are bad golfers) and narrows their potential customer base.


That having been said--what's the harm in there being the occasional (usually private) golf course that doesn't cater so much to the dub?


For ski/snowboard mountains, oftentimes the best terrain/views (and therefore experience) are monopolized by the black and double black diamond runs. The bunny slopes are frequently positioned towards the bottom of the mountain with the flattest and least interesting terrain. Is this considered to be a "failure" on the part of the ski resort developer?


I agree with whomever it was that questioned the virtue of catering to the "lowest common denominator." If a golf course developer wants the architect he hires to build a golf course that caters specifically to the more expert player, why should we treat this as a failure on the part of either the developer or the architect?


Theoretically, why is it desirable to have every course cater to every player type?

[Joe Sponcia]

Where do courses/clubs draw the line on a maximum handicap?  My wife is a legit 34, plays about 3x per month, hits the ball about 180-190 off the tee and has the hands of a stone mason from 50 yards in.  She plays fast...but she hits 30 more shots than me. 


I have never played Pebble Beach...but believe a 5-6 hour round would certainly dampen the experience.  Public courses, I don't think can discriminate against high handicaps...but I've played many rounds on vacation in Myrtle Beach behind folks that "paid their $180 (at Caledonia)" and they wouldn't let Jordan Spieth play through.  It ruins the same $180 I spent watching people dink it around...but unfortunately, that is the price to pay at public courses, even the nice ones. 


I have played some difficult courses for high handicaps.  I just played Musgrove Mills with my son (11 years old), 9 holes, and he lost 5 balls.  No one was on the course, and we both play at an acceptable pace, but really that course with forced carries and raised greens (no run-up options) is too hard for him.  Contrast that a month later at Lookout Mountain, he lost 1 ball in 18 holes, but had a bunch of putts.  A much more enjoyable experience. 


I now feel like I have rambled and may have gotten off your intent for the topic...but I just remember learning the game in college.  No experience.  I struggled at the range for a solid 60 days and then took a lesson.  One lesson got me hitting the ball in the air and I was hooked...but I still hit range balls for a lonnnnng time before playing on a Saturday/Sunday morning for fear of holding up the course.  I don't feel people nowadays care about other people and their pace.  They paid their money.  I don't see how people can enjoy hitting worm burners for $150-200...but I'm probably in the minority?

[MClutterbuck]

I have never played Pebble Beach...but believe a 5-6 hour round would certainly dampen the experience.  Public courses, I don't think can discriminate against high handicaps...

Unless you play Pebble that often, 1 round at Pebble lasting 5-6 hours is actually very enjoyable. Just relax and go with the flow and enjoy the architecture and views.


Now, 6.5 hours at Spanish Bay, just kill me.

[Tom_Doak]

That having been said--what's the harm in there being the occasional (usually private) golf course that doesn't cater so much to the dub?

I agree with whomever it was that questioned the virtue of catering to the "lowest common denominator." If a golf course developer wants the architect he hires to build a golf course that caters specifically to the more expert player, why should we treat this as a failure on the part of either the developer or the architect?

Theoretically, why is it desirable to have every course cater to every player type?

Sam:


I agree with you, generally.  The decision is really up to the developer, and a lot of developers these days are scared of writing off ANY potential source of revenue, though the best of them understand that catering to one group may make it harder to cater to another.


There have been several courses, even recently, which were built to cater to only the best players.  One example would be Pikewood National, which I saw last week.  The course has gotten rave reviews from most sources, and it's the course the developers wanted to build.  It's walking-only, too, and that's another way to write off a segment of potential members.  I was really impressed with it.  But with all of those "barriers to entry" they are having trouble finding enough good players who can walk it and who can afford to join, in their market.

[Sam Kestin]

Tom D--


Question for you--how frequently do you come across a situation where the course that you'd want to build on a given site is wildly divergent from the course the developer wants to build?


In this situation, what usually is the source of conflict between your vision and their vision?


Just curious. I ask this question in this particular thread because my absolutely under-educated guess would be degree of difficulty.