"A course that is so difficult that the highest handicaps..."

[David Davis]

"can't finish is a poor course."


This quote from the feature interview is naturally something to a certain extent we cover here on GCA quite a lot. However, Mr. Thomson straight out considers it a "poor" course.


This brings about quite a few questions as to the context of this remark. What does he consider the highest handicaps (i.e. from his time). Does that mean 36 hcp'ers, or even as high as 54 hcp'ers. If so can anyone think of courses where this is the case? I mean a course with a single bunker could prove impossible to finish for such a golfer not able to get the ball out of the bunker.


I can think offhand of courses like Old Mac that seems playable and fun to all levels to me but there are some holes that could be impossible perhaps for the highest hcp'ers.


Did Mr. Thomson ever build such a course as what he explains? I'm not familiar enough with his work to know the answer.


I suppose part of my question is where do architects actually draw the line given the immense discrepancy between the lowest and highest hcp'ers.


The other point (if we are to take this at all literally) would be nearly all the courses that we rank so high would under that premise be considered poor courses.

[Keith OHalloran]

What does he mean by finish? Can a high handicapper finish Pine Valley?

[MClutterbuck]

Assuming we go up to a 36hcp, there are 2 limitations you could set:


1. Score: What is the highest score we would find acceptable and deem a round of golf. 150? 200? But still, they can finish even though it is punishment to do so.


2. What is the acceptable maximum number of balls needed for a high handicap to finish the round. 12? 18? 24? Two dozen balls is excessive to carry around. I have seen players loose 16 balls in a round. At some point this becomes a real limiting factor to finish a round.

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of things to take into account -


Max men's hcp has changed over the decades and has varied in some countires - 18-24-28-36-54
Once-upon-a-time if in a bunker you could take a penalty and drop outside the bunker


Atb

[Sven Nilsen]

I can think offhand of courses like Old Mac that seems playable and fun to all levels to me but there are some holes that could be impossible perhaps for the highest hcp'ers.

What holes at Old Mac are so impossible that a golfer couldn't finish?

[David Davis]

I can think offhand of courses like Old Mac that seems playable and fun to all levels to me but there are some holes that could be impossible perhaps for the highest hcp'ers.

What holes at Old Mac are so impossible that a golfer couldn't finish?

Sven, that was of course not my point of the thread, I just picked a random course I thought was really playable. (plus you changed my words a bit. I said "could be" and "perhaps" and aimed it at the "highest hcp'ers". You know I love the place and the courses. I certainly didn't say "so impossible" for a golfer... ;-)


Any holes with a bunker to fall in is impossible for someone that can't get the ball up over the lip. Just saying.

[Kalen Braley]

The Idaho Club would seem to be a candidate for this category.  its a beautiful course, but an absolute beast with forced water carries on nearly every hole and some difficult shots requirements on several holes.

I've played it 3 times as a 16 or better.... and never sniffed breaking 100.  I played one round with a legit 2 and he shot 85...

[Tim Gavrich]

"The highest handicaps" seems to be a very nebulous phrase. Does he mean ~30-handicappers? 24? People who have never swung a golf club before?


Isn't there a general minimum skill/experience level a golfer should have in order to take on "big" courses?

[Jason Thurman]

I cannot think of any other field where appealing to the lowest common denominator is a prerequisite for greatness.

[Tim_Weiman]

What does he mean by finish? Can a high handicapper finish Pine Valley?

Keith,


I have had the experience of playing Pine Valley with a 36 HCP. It was painful to watch and certainly not helpful to my game.


It may have been toughest for the caddy. He knew the guy was a guest of the late Ernie Ransome, so he wasn't quite sure how to handle the situation.


By the back nine, the caddy did start picking up balls, perhaps due to our encouragement (I promised him I would explain the situation to Ernie).


That said, I am a bit torn. As a rule a course should be able to accommodate the 36 HCP, but I just don't think this rule absolutely needs to apply to every course.

[Sven Nilsen]

I can think offhand of courses like Old Mac that seems playable and fun to all levels to me but there are some holes that could be impossible perhaps for the highest hcp'ers.

What holes at Old Mac are so impossible that a golfer couldn't finish?

Sven, that was of course not my point of the thread, I just picked a random course I thought was really playable. (plus you changed my words a bit. I said "could be" and "perhaps" and aimed it at the "highest hcp'ers". You know I love the place and the courses. I certainly didn't say "so impossible" for a golfer... ;-)


Any holes with a bunker to fall in is impossible for someone that can't get the ball up over the lip. Just saying.

Perhaps there are better examples. 


Even at Bandon, Old Mac is the most playable of the bunch for a high handicapper.  There are no forced carries where you're in danger of losing a ball, no water, plenty of width to avoid the bunkers and ground access to every green if needed. 


There really isn't any hole out there that is "impossible perhaps for the highest handicappers."  Par might be tough, but they'll finish every hole.


Sven

[David Davis]

Perhaps there are better examples. 


Even at Bandon, Old Mac is the most playable of the bunch for a high handicapper.  There are no forced carries where you're in danger of losing a ball, no water, plenty of width to avoid the bunkers and ground access to every green if needed. 


Sven

Sven,


That is exactly why I picked Old Mac, because it was the first course that came to mind immediately like that. Yet you are still assuming that the player is good enough to putt, bump or play the ball through the ground access area without a miss that would put them into a bunker somewhere and render the hole impossible for them to finish. That's the point.

[David Davis]

Marcos,


1. Score: What is the highest score we would find acceptable and deem a round of golf. 150? 200? But still, they can finish even though it is punishment to do so.

DD: There must also be some kind of time frame within which to successfully finish right? How long would it take to shoot 150 or 200? It would need to be within the reasonable limit? So 5 hours with carts in the US and 3 hours walking in the UK and Ireland? (ok that last part is a joke of course)

2. What is the acceptable maximum number of balls needed for a high handicap to finish the round. 12? 18? 24? Two dozen balls is excessive to carry around. I have seen players loose 16 balls in a round. At some point this becomes a real limiting factor to finish a round.



Yeah good point, no idea, I guess that depends on their budget and patience right? What do 24 Pinnacle waterfalls cost?

[David Davis]

What does he mean by finish? Can a high handicapper finish Pine Valley?

Keith,


I have had the experience of playing Pine Valley with a 36 HCP. It was painful to watch and certainly not helpful to my game.


It may have been toughest for the caddy. He knew the guy was a guest of the late Ernie Ransome, so he wasn't quite sure how to handle the situation.


By the back nine, the caddy did start picking up balls, perhaps due to our encouragement (I promised him I would explain the situation to Ernie).


That said, I am a bit torn. As a rule a course should be able to accommodate the 36 HCP, but I just don't think this rule absolutely needs to apply to every course.

Even if they could in theory finish, time constraints would prevent it just as you mention Tim. That potentially makes the experience bad for many other players plus caddies.

[MClutterbuck]

Yeah good point, no idea, I guess that depends on their budget and patience right? What do 24 Pinnacle waterfalls cost?

Cost? I was coming from the weight angle. Carrying 24 balls is quite heavy.

[Sven Nilsen]

Its my job to help people not get in those bunkers.


And if they do, its my job to help get them out of them, even if it means coming out sideways, backwards or with a putter.  There's really only one bunker on the course that I'd consider extremely severe, and even there creative options exist.


I very, very rarely see someone quit a hole at Old Mac, and its almost always not because they couldn't finish it (the beauty of match play), and mostly because they mismanaged their play.  I see it happen all the time on the other three courses.


By your logic, any course with a single bunker "could" be unfinishable for a high handicapper.  I'm not buying it, and I think you're reading way to much into Mr. Thomson's statement.  Its a generalized thought, one that needs to be broken down in terms of course purposes (an elite test v. pleasure golf), course setup and levels of difficulty from different tees. 


At its essence, its a statement on penal golf.  But no one is saying that good golf courses must allow for a bad player to get around without getting into any kind trouble.  That is a ludicrous extrapolation.

[Jason Thurman]

I've played a lot of tough courses with a lot of really bad players. I've seen thousands of balls lost. The great thing about high handicappers is that they always find a ball even if it isn't theirs, and they don't care what kind of ball they play. Start the round with 12 Pinnacles, finish the round with a 26 ball assortment of everything from ProV1s to Bomb 00s.

[JESII]

Interesting comment.


Give me 10 players that actually play some golf and have legitimate 36 handicaps. Give them the best caddies, and I bet they couldn't coach two of them to break 150 at Pine Valley from the standard tees, specially if the greens are just a hair firm and have a little bit of speed.


I think Peter Thompson would agree Pine Valley is a great course.


There's certainly merit to the adage of being able to play a course with a putter...it's just not mandatory in my opinion.

[Carl Rogers]

As much as Ballyhack is a great experience, it may come close falling into this category. 

Forgetting Equitable Stroke Control: 2 items come to mind...............
1. The issue of forced carries is a function of where the Committee puts the Drop Zone. (Why not put it on the other side of the carry?)
2. Bunkers so deep, steep and narrow that a multitude of attempts cannot obtain escape.

[Tommy Williamsen]

My first time at Pine Valley my host told me that he was asked not to bring anyone who has more than an 18 handicap.

[Mark Pavy]

This brings about quite a few questions as to the context of this remark.

It's amazing how everyone raves about the sandbelt courses in Australia, yet have zero knowledge of what is Australia's greatest golf facility- The National. The National features 3 courses, The Old- Robert Trent Jones Jr, The Ocean- Thompson/Wolveridge/Perret and The Moonah- Norman.

Whilst I believe Thompson's remark is general in nature, the interpretation of the remark may vary after playing the three courses at The National. I seem to remember visitors had to be of single figures even to to get on The Old, this may have changed.

[David Davis]

This brings about quite a few questions as to the context of this remark.

It's amazing how everyone raves about the sandbelt courses in Australia, yet have zero knowledge of what is Australia's greatest golf facility- The National. The National features 3 courses, The Old- Robert Trent Jones Jr, The Ocean- Thompson/Wolveridge/Perret and The Moonah- Norman.

Whilst I believe Thompson's remark is general in nature, the interpretation of the remark may vary after playing the three courses at The National. I seem to remember visitors had to be of single figures even to to get on The Old, this may have changed.

Mark, I played two of the 3 the last time I was there. I skipped the RTJ Jr. course. This was 2006 and I don't remember them in great detail anymore to be honest but I do remember thinking the Moonah course was pretty tough in the wind at the time. Can't imagine that one fitting this description. The other was better but I seem to remember the rough being quite challenging and I know I lost a couple balls that day withs one wild shots which I didn't experience on the sand belt courses but that really doesn't say much. The Moonah Course sits in my head as having been really tough on the day, I was playing a tournament.

[Mark Pavy]

David,

The Old- RTJ Jr was the first course built, Thompson and co built The Ocean later followed by Norman's Moonah course.

I took a group of 32 club golfers to The National to play The Old in the am followed by the Ocean in the pm. The scoring at The National Old personified Thompson's remark. The golf pro in our group shot 74, none of the 31 club golfers (hcp range 4-18) broke 100, a few walked off.

It's my favourite course.

[Josh Stevens]

Then clearly Sawgrass is rubbish

[Will MacEwen]

Could clearing the hill at 3 Old Mac be a chore for someone who hits it 100 yards on the ground?