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Gary Sato

American architects in Ireland
« on: May 24, 2016, 04:27:39 PM »
Following up on the thread about RTJ2 now building a course in Ireland, does it really make sense to take a chance on an architect who moves lots of dirt to try and create something unique?  His father had questionable results at Ballybunion.


What American architect has built something unique and yet appropriate for Ireland?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 04:31:25 PM »
It depends on the property, the client and the architect.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Gary Sato

Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 04:35:58 PM »
It depends on the property, the client and the architect.


Obviously but that doesn't answer the question.  Name a course in Ireland thats good built by an American.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016, 05:04:30 PM »
Gary,


Are you seriously suggesting that no America GCA is capable of building a quality course in Ireland? Can you provide us with a list of courses there designed by Americans?


A number of American GCAs have designed quality courses in Scotland. Don't you think they could design quality courses in Ireland if given the opportunity to do so?


DT

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 06:49:15 PM »
I hesitate to respond simply because the question seems downright silly.   But to put it to rest, Tralee, Ed Seay/Arnold Palmer.

Gary Sato

Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 07:02:32 PM »
Gary,


Are you seriously suggesting that no America GCA is capable of building a quality course in Ireland? Can you provide us with a list of courses there designed by Americans?


Of course not. I am bringing up for discussion that no American has built anything significant. I am suggesting that Ireland is out of the box for your typical American architect. With RTJ2 now building his first course in Ireland will we see more of the same?


My quick search found the following. Again nothing to write home about.


Palmer has built Kildare and Tralee. 
Ron Kirby built Old Head.
Nicklaus has built Killeen Castle and Mount Juliet.
RTJ has built Adare Manor which is now being remodeled by Fazio.
RTJ has built Ballybunion New.
Engh worked on Carne
Fazio worked on Waterville.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 02:44:16 AM »
I think, with respect, that it's a pretty silly question. If, in your opinion, none of the American-designed courses in Ireland amount to a hill of beans, that just says that no American has got the right project, or if they have, they have buggered it up (which I suspect is the point you are trying to make).


Nonetheless, you might not think Tralee significant, but it's ranked 7 in Ireland by Golf Digest's Ireland edition, and the members certainly think it is good. Stan Eby did a pretty damned good job at the Portmarnock Hotel course. K Club, like it or not, is significant as it held a Ryder Cup and several Irish Opens. Fazio's work at Waterville sees it at no. 5 on those same rankings. Adare is a reasonable shout for best inland course in Ireland, and is now being totally redone by Fazio.



Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 05:23:48 AM »
Does Canadian count?


I've heard Jeff Howes has done some good work on various projects in Ireland. He's based in Kilkenny.


http://jhgd.com/projects/

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 04:11:47 PM »
Stan Eby did a pretty damned good job at the Portmarnock Hotel course.


Was that not Langer?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 04:42:42 PM »
I suspect if Keiser and Bill Coore build at Inch Strand all this will be forgotten.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 05:13:43 PM by Joel_Stewart »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 05:36:38 PM »
I agree that the question is a non starter.  It seems to me that it is strictly a question of the developer-club-ownership doing their due diligence and selecting whom they believe is the best fit.  Sure, we U.S. contributors here on GCA.com have a number of our favorites from U.S. and any of them could do a great job in Ireland or Patagonia for that matter.  But, it is quite a leap to suggest that somehow Ireland projects lack an ability to select their own preferences.  Let's face it, with enviro restrictions and the large difference in land track ownership, there aren't going to be many new courses on lovely Irish soil to make this much of a discussion, unless we are talking of a specific tract of land available.  If Eddie Hackett could inspire or cajole communities or entities to develop a golf course, then I'm sure other Irish golf course architects, designers and builders can do the same.  With all the rocks and stones about on most land tracts, there is going to be a considerable amount of dirt moved, regardless of what country of origin the archie hails from.  Pure coastal sand dunes and links-like land not requiring a bit of earth works shaping is not exactly abundant or available.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 09:48:33 PM »
Well, I'm baffled.


No one has answered Gary's original question with any substance. What IS good about the courses that he wrote?


If you think that his words suggest that no USA-born/based architect could ever build a great course in Ireland, you're a conspiracy theorist, interested apparently in extrapolating your own meaning/interpretation.


What I extrapolated was this: Weiskopf, Doak and Hanse have built some nice courses in Scotland. Why not the same in Ireland? I have a response (perhaps not an answer) but I'll let the tree house have at it first.
Coming in 2024
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 11:50:40 PM »
Ronald:

I was going to answer that maybe they're not hiring the right Americans.

However, I have looked at two or three projects in Ireland over the years, and in every case there was an Irish consultant or outsider in the picture, actively badmouthing all American architects by association, because Jack and Trent got the drainage wrong in their first courses.  There is more anti-American sentiment in Ireland than anywhere I have looked at a job.  I have no idea why that's so.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 12:18:55 AM »
Tom, might it be because Jack and Trent got the drainage wrong in their first courses?   Just saying, first impressions and all. 

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 03:54:54 AM »
Stan Eby did a pretty damned good job at the Portmarnock Hotel course.

Was that not Langer?

Don't be silly Jon :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 07:11:54 AM »
 ???




How about Doak , Coore , Crensahw , Flynn , etc etc etc . To think an American architect couldn't do a great course in Ireland is a ridiculous premise.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 07:50:27 AM »
???

How about Doak , Coore , Crensahw , Flynn , etc etc etc . To think an American architect couldn't do a great course in Ireland is a ridiculous premise.

I think Mr Flynn might struggle, as he's dead....
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2016, 07:57:41 AM »
 ::)




Really?


Must have missed that .
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 08:02:47 AM by archie_struthers »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2016, 10:06:10 AM »
Ron Kirby has done a good bit of work too.


Let's analyse a little further. Ireland is effectively divided in to links land on some coasts and a whole lot of heavy, farming, green and gently rolling countryside elsewhere (with some lakes and hills and glens but still the same type of soil with the same kind of drizzly weather).


The only links courses built by Americans are Ballybunion New by RTJ, an awkward site with a course that was very bold but that his own team felt was a missed opportunity... and Tralee, built by Palmer prior to the minimalist / second golden age movement. Tralee is extremely well thought of if not quite to the tastes of the general GCA crowd. We'll come back to the sea in a moment.


All other courses were built on heavy soil. Some had the advantage of being built in beautiful country house estates but again, most were built in the 90's at the tail end of the more American target golf / containment mounding era of golf design and before the minimalist movement kicked off. Given the nature of the entire Irish midlands, if Tom Doak was to build on that kind of land today, I'd imagine we might get a style of course more in keeping with his new one at St. Emilion (which looks great to me if a little more "normal" and less flashy than some of the sand based ones - maybe a good thing).


The Americans that did build on that land tended to be the ex-pro big sigs (because everyone was wooed by the money, ego and name in the Celtic Tiger 90's) and because of their size, they tended to be the slowest to jump on the latest trend (i.e. a more natural look). Doesn't make the courses bad. Just means they don't fit the taste of this forum and there was nothing innovative or new about them to the larger golfing world. Jeff Howes did do some excellent work on more modest budgets. Jeff initially worked for RTJ and Nicklaus as well so his style is not too dissimilar.


Back to the sea - No American has built on links land since the masses started to trend back towards a love of more natural, lay of the land designs. We almost got the 36 Doak / C&C facility at Kilshannig. We might yet get Inch. We did get a Fazio renovation of Waterville that was very well received but let's face it, because of the nature of the job, Fazio was always going to build his green sites rather than find them.


If an American does get a links site - no matter who that American is - the big question for me is whether he can resist from over-cooking it. Our modern architects are so skilled and sand is such a play-box, that it is all too easy to add in too many features. Real classic links course were actually very simple affairs - subtle and simple. A modern course could very well end up great - of the highest echelon - without actually resembling an old style links, being clearly modern rather than timeless. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just something I keep an eye on.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2016, 12:53:29 PM »
Ally -

Who has been doing the most recent work at Belmullet?

DT

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2016, 01:40:35 PM »
Ally


Part of the question is why haven't Americans been given more seaside opps in Ireland.  Okay, not all that many opps have come along, but it seems to me that Ireland has largely (whichever nation produced the archies) missed the boat in terms of seriously high quality designs.  Scotland has fared much better with not many more opps.  Perhaps some of that has to do with the land, but the Scots examples did have some serious bulldozing involved. 


It would be interesting to have your take on why Ireland lagged behind Scotland...or perhaps you don't believe it did/does.


Ciao
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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2016, 01:49:23 PM »
A couple more for the list -


Strand-9 at Rosapenna - Doak/Iverson*
Changes to several greens on the Sandy Hills course - Beau wellings
St Patricks - wasn't there a Nicklaus involvement?

atb


* later correction
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 05:06:50 AM by Thomas Dai »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2016, 05:17:18 PM »
Ronald:

I was going to answer that maybe they're not hiring the right Americans.


They hired the right Americans to build the wrong style of course.  The business plan was flawed. I'm not sure an American style course will ever be accepted or successful over there.

Mark Pavy

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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: American architects in Ireland
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2016, 10:01:16 PM »
A couple more for the list -


Strand-9 at Rosapenna - Doak/Urbina
Changes to several greens on the Sandy Hills course - Beau wellings
St Patricks - wasn't there a Nicklaus involvement?


Atb

Thomas:  the work at Rosapenna was done by Eric Iverson.  Jim Urbina has never been there as far as I know.  He and I did spend a few days at Old Head long ago.

The Nicklaus group worked on St Patrick's for three weeks before the client missed payroll and everything shut down.  I've done a routing for that site and hope someday we will get to build a real links that even the Irish will like, or at least grudgingly admit is ok :)