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JakaB

You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« on: September 24, 2003, 06:33:30 PM »
Please explain how a man that created venues 40 years ago that fit the modern game today does not get any respect around here...it's just got to be because you are stupid.

Michael Dugger

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2003, 06:58:17 PM »
Are you kidding?  Stupid ???  

Not sucking a guy off does not mean that you don't respect him.

Are you sure you don't want to retitle this thread?

How about 'You guys are stupid for not sucking off RT Jones'?  

jakab, man, you are out there.  Sincerely.

On to the subject at hand....of course, I can only speak for myself.  I respect RT Jones vast body of work.  I respect and admire what the man has done for golf.  I respect that he has made it possible for a lot of people to make a living designing golf courses.

I don't like the idea that his notion of a "signature design" has resulted in a system that contributes, IMHO, to less than savory golf courses.  I WONDER why this man who has spanned forty years and built innumerable golf courses does not have a single one that is considered truly GREAT by our so-called experts.  Spyglass is nice.  Peachtree gets some love.  Mauna Kea is good, right?  But there are other architects who have four and five courses ranked ahead of RT Jones HIGHEST.  Why is this, jakab?  You wanna talk about quantity over quality, I'd take Pete Dye's body of work over RTJones' any day.  

Just what is your point, exactly?  

Stupid  ;)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

George Pazin

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2003, 06:58:30 PM »
Guess it depends on how you determine that his courses fit the modern game.

You can keep 'em.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2003, 07:04:01 PM »
I think part of the problem is that his work cusps the stupid distiction Golfweek makes between Modern and Classic.  His great work of the early sixties is truly classic...assuming he is a modern architect..I can say without hesitation that he is the greatest modern architect that ever died.

Michael Dugger

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2003, 07:54:14 PM »
I want to add one thing.  jakab seems to want to highlight this bit about the MODERN GAME.  

What is it about RTJones courses that are so in touch with the modern game?

What makes this man a genius because he was doing this 40 years ago that doesn't make AW or Mac a genius for doing it 110 years ago?  

What is the "it"?
Are RTJones designs holding up better to the modern game?

someone please explain this to me
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Lou_Duran

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2003, 07:59:26 PM »
JakaB,

I must fall into the stupid category because though I have a lot of respect for RTJ, none of his courses which I have played are among my favorites.  RTJ built difficult courses, often tightly trapped on both sides of the fairways and greens.  His long runway tees do not lend themselves to varying the angle of attack to make it easier for the less skilled golfer.  Some of RTJ's courses are minor variations on the same theme, and, for me at least, not particularly interesting.  Having said all this, I recognize that RTJ is forever a giant in the industry and his courses are generally fine examinations of one's game.

Coral_Ridge

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2003, 08:17:44 PM »
First of all I am a fan of RTJ's although if I had the chance to play any golf course in the world, his best might be down on the list compared to many others.  Robert Trent Jones has done as much as any architect for his profession.  Time will probably be good to his legacy in the business.

With that said I find it very amusing that "mdugger" is insulted about "JakaB's" use of the word stupid, and then proceeds to use the phrase "sucking off".  It is hilarious and silly at the same time.


Jeff Fortson

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2003, 09:00:47 PM »
JakaB,

Since we have played a round of golf together and I found you to be a great guy it amazes me to this day that you continue to use these kind of "off the cuff, monday morning dousche bag" ;) tactics to get at those that disagree with you.

However, I think know what you are getting at.  Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you.  I work at a RTJ Sr. design built in 1961 and it sucks, as do many of his designs, IMHO.  Other than the first 5 holes at Spyglass I have yet to play a course of his that is even remotely memorable.  He may have been a great guy, a good father, friend, and family man, but I find nothing inspiring in 95% of what I have seen him do.  

He definitely helped bridge a gap from the Golden Era of architecture into our modern era.  However, he and his offspring are major contributors as to why there is a renaissance of Golden Era design happening right now.  

So I guess I am in your camp.  Thank God for RTJ, otherwise, we wouldn't have the current movement to build memorable golf courses.

Remember, this is all just opinion.  I don't hate the man, I just haven't really enjoyed any of his designs yet.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2003, 09:02:12 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Mike_Cirba

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2003, 09:56:37 PM »
I think the largest contribution that RTJ Sr. made to the game is that he helped build a LOT of courses during a time of great growth in the game, fueled by the popularity of the working man, Arnold Palmer.

The irony is that his very earliest courses are the ones I find the most interesting, and the ones that reflect some of his tutelage under guys like Stanley Thompson.  For instance, Green Lake State Park GC near Syracuse is a fun and interesting course, and by the 40s, he had built The Dunes in Myrtle Beach, which I think is an excellent course in many respects.

The problem, as I see it, is two-fold.  First, he built so many damn courses for so many purposes that most of them are missing the fine details that only come through hours and days onsite, and they tend to all look and play the same (remind you of any modern architects?).  

Secondly, after the 50s, he seemed to take his "Open Doctor" methodology that he developed to test the pros and let that become his primary design philosophy.  Thus, the typical RTJ Sr. course has flanking fairway bunkers that the average guy can't reach, long approaches to HUGE, multi-dimensional greens that the average guy is unintentionally laying up to, followed by stereotypical green surfaces that get old after awhile.

Oh yes, throw in par fives with greens fronted by water hazards for the typical "heroic risk reward" type of shot and you've seen most of his repetoire.  

For the average golfer, the concept of "hard par, easy bogey" translates to yawn-inducing boredom, even though no one walks away from one his courses saying that it's too easy.  Just...ultimately lacking interest and imagination.  

Michael Moore

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2003, 10:06:48 PM »
Mr. B -

Get a hold of yourself, man!

Mr. Fortsonator -

Dousche bag?? Are they the ones sponsoring the new tournament in Boston?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2003, 10:07:01 PM by Michael Moore »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mike_Cirba

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2003, 10:10:16 PM »
Michael Moore;

Two days in a row now, you've been my only reason to laugh out loud.   ;D

Jeezuz Christ...you're something else.  Don't ever stop.  

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2003, 10:18:49 PM »
Why didn't he do any of the stupid things you guys seem to think are rubber stampage at Olympic Lake...Is I stupid for considering it the greatest RTJ still out there.

Mike_Cirba

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2003, 10:26:11 PM »
JakaB;

Good question.  

However, he did manage to add the only fairway bunker to that course!  ;)

Let me turn this around a little bit, however.

I don't disrespect him...in fact, if it weren't for guys like RTJ Sr., Dick Wilson, Billy Bell, Edmund Ault, William & David Gordon, and others of that period, golf would be nowhere near as pervasive and popular with the average Joe as it is today, and for that I'm thankful.  But, since this site is devoted to the best in golf course architecture, I have to ask;

Which courses of RTJ Sr. do you feel are among the best that golf has to offer?  

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2003, 10:32:35 PM »
I just poured a drink and I don't dare post drunk...but I can only recall playing Olympic, Bellerieve (can't ever spell never could) and Otter Creek at this time.   I am not really qualified to talk in specifics....sorry.


david h. carroll

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2003, 10:51:19 PM »
please don't forget the RTJ redo's, or better yet, updates, RTJ did over his career....they SUCK....his original stuff is better.

Tim_Weiman

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2003, 11:14:00 PM »
JakaB:

I travel across the pond about three times a year to visit my favorite place in golf - a course that RTJ built.

Okay, it might be the raw land itself. It might be the close friendships I've developed. It might be that there is a pretty good course next door.

But, somehow "not respecting RTJ" doesn't quite seem to fit the almost religious feeling I get walking the Cashen. Even Alister Mackenzie, my favorite classic era architect, never produced a course that makes me feel so lucky to be alive.

I go back to a point I've made many times. Wouldn't it be better to just passionately write about your favorite RTJ courses? If we don't appreciate him, wouldn't that be more likely to change our minds?
 
Tim Weiman

Jeff Fortson

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2003, 12:03:18 AM »
Mr. Moore,

Sorry for the typo, douche. ;)

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

A_Clay_Man

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2003, 12:21:21 AM »
Let's be a little sensitive and as Lou states respect the man for building venues when the market demanded them. Now that the market has turned towards more thoughtful even naturalistic designs, some if not most of his concepts or stylings will become dated.

How interesting do you think his designs could have been if the augusta syndrome hadn't taken off? Once it did take off and your an architect looking to do business, don't you design for the masses?

Tom_Doak

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2003, 01:15:21 AM »
Jaka:  I was lucky enough to spend time with Mr. Jones on three occasions.  Like most of the great architects he was full of stories, and pretty full of himself, too.

I respect what he accomplished a great deal ... he almost singlehandedly put golf architecture back on the map after the war.

And yet, like Lou Duran (only more publicly), when I went to choose 31 courses by 31 different designers for the front of my book, I managed not to include any by Robert Trent Jones.  I didn't even realize I had omitted him until after the book was in print; but in hindsight, I wouldn't have chosen Spyglass Hill or The Dunes for that section.

Mark_Fine

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2003, 07:41:10 AM »
RTJ gets my respect as much for being a sound businessman as much for what he did with his golf architecture.  I've played dozens of his designs around the world and though few if any stand out as favorites, he did build sound "tests of golf".  We talked about "styles" on another thread and he definitely had a style/design philosophy that he followed almost routinely.  He stepped right into Donald Ross's shoes and as Tom Doak says, almost singlehandedly brought golf architecture bad from the dead.  
« Last Edit: September 25, 2003, 07:41:26 AM by Mark_Fine »

tonyt

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2003, 08:06:04 AM »
JakaB,

Please advise what are your favourite RTJ courses and why. Not having travelled to the US, I will take in your feedback and not disagree one bit. But thus far, I've heard your headline only.

BCrosby

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2003, 08:15:17 AM »
It's interesting that after 19 or so posts about RTJ, his most important and highest ranked course has not been mentioned - Peachtree.

Getting the Peachtree commission was a very big deal. Bobby Jones was going to build a course in ATL that was to rival that other course in Augusta. When RTJ got the job, it cemented his reputation. I think you can also argue that his work there set the tone for much of what followed for the next couple of decades. P'tree (1947/48) was in many respects the first post-Golden Age course.

(At exactly the same time RTJ was making major changes to ANGC. Changes that materially altered the face of the course.)

I'm not a big fan of P'tree. But the course marks the confluence of a lot of historical trends. Ending some, beginning others. P'tree deserves a lot more attention than it usually gets from people interested in the history of gca.

As happens to most people after a certain number of years, RTJ now has the reputation he deserves. Big ego, good engineer, self-promoter, and the co-inventor with the USGA of the "Monster Course".

You don't appreciate how powerful his influence was until you talk to ordinary members at clubs about restoration issues. The first obstacle you have to overcome (well, after the money issues) is to convince people that good courses don't always look like monster US Open courses.

That's RTJ talkin' from the grave.

Bob    

   
« Last Edit: September 25, 2003, 09:04:07 AM by BCrosby »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2003, 08:22:11 AM »
Barney,

I see you still have not contacted Dutchy Doyle, but I will bite. ;)

My first known RTJ course was as a grad student at Cornell, where he was a student and he designed the course. For something like $300, you could join as a student member, and I took full advantage of it. Thus, I know the course very well. They also had a deal with the Colgate course which is also RTJ, and probably a better course due to the land. During the summer, I would play at Montauk Downs and Fox Hill out on Long Island. Thus RTJ was my real introduction into architecture, and up at Cornell, he was obviously celebrated, and they have since named the course after him. Over the years, I have also played Spyglass, Duke and a bunch of others.

As stated above, he just IMHO never built a great golf course to seal his reputation. In addition they do start to feel repetitive (hard par, easy bogey.....1 short par 5's with second shot over water or hazard that you can also play around). I just don't seek them out these days, but I would like to play The Dunes in Myrtle Beach and Ballybunion New.

Correction, add Peechtree after seeing Bob's post.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2003, 08:23:02 AM by Mike_Sweeney »

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2003, 08:41:44 AM »
A few:

Me like 99% of most golfers play few courses..so the repetitive slam is moot.  Tell it to the Raynorites or ChilliMacs.

I only loved tournament golf from appoximately 1968 to 1976..this probably has influenced my respect for the man.

I think I understand the "party line" on RTJ thanks to this thread...I could agree if I first agree with so much else.

Is RTJ the man who really created the AGNC that Nicklaus won on in 1976...or if not that so much did he create the 16th...if he did...he is special indeed.

I love everything about Bellerive....If you have not played it with modern technology you are missing out on a real treat....fun in the real world in real time.

I think he made Tillie and some other old guys respected by the average guy like me through his great work at courses like Baltusrol....

Did he ever do a redo at a Ross course for a championship...how did that go..

Mike_Sweeney

Re:You guys are stupid for not respecting RTJ..
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2003, 08:52:33 AM »

Did he ever do a redo at a Ross course for a championship...how did that go..

Aronimink, not too good from what I understand. They basically just undid what he did, but others here know better.

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