Should courses be built for the people who have seen everything?

[Jason Thurman]

you're talking to 3-time Marshall High School pickleball champion. 

It's a winter sport around here, commonly known as paddleball. Essentially a cross between tennis and racquetball played on a mini-court.  I believe pickleball is played with a wiffleball and plastic paddles while paddle ball is played with a lacrosse-type ball and wooden paddles.

You already refuse to play golf below 50 degrees and go south every winter. Now we learn you're a pickleball champion. You're going to be so in your element when we're all living in The Villages in 50 years.


No surprise that someone who doesn't know what pickleball is would also refuse to drink American macro lagers. People who play pickleball are down to earth Bud Light drinkin' folk. Kalen must be a CCFAD type.

[Buck Wolter]

you're talking to 3-time Marshall High School pickleball champion. 

It's a winter sport around here, commonly known as paddleball. Essentially a cross between tennis and racquetball played on a mini-court.  I believe pickleball is played with a wiffleball and plastic paddles while paddle ball is played with a lacrosse-type ball and wooden paddles.

You already refuse to play golf below 50 degrees and go south every winter. Now we learn you're a pickleball champion. You're going to be so in your element when we're all living in The Villages in 50 years.


No surprise that someone who doesn't know what pickleball is would also refuse to drink American macro lagers. People who play pickleball are down to earth Bud Light drinkin' folk. Kalen must be a CCFAD type.

There are quite a few very exclusive CC's that have paddle tennis courts -- not sure if the Busch family still drinks Bud but they are members of one.

[BHoover]

"This is Frank Costanza. You think you can keep us out of Florida? We're moving in lock, stock and barrel. We're gonna be in the pool. We're gonna be in the clubhouse. We're gonna be all over that shuffleboard court. And I dare you to keep me out!"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JfaO3A-m13Q

[Kalen Braley]

you're talking to 3-time Marshall High School pickleball champion. 

It's a winter sport around here, commonly known as paddleball. Essentially a cross between tennis and racquetball played on a mini-court.  I believe pickleball is played with a wiffleball and plastic paddles while paddle ball is played with a lacrosse-type ball and wooden paddles.

You already refuse to play golf below 50 degrees and go south every winter. Now we learn you're a pickleball champion. You're going to be so in your element when we're all living in The Villages in 50 years.


No surprise that someone who doesn't know what pickleball is would also refuse to drink American macro lagers. People who play pickleball are down to earth Bud Light drinkin' folk. Kalen must be a CCFAD type.

Lol...Sorry Jason, I'm a muni guy myself.    CCFAD/Private is certainly a luxury for this guy.

P.S.  Snobbery is not limited to just golf or beer.  You pick the hobby and I can guarantee you its chock full or every type from "muni guys" to the "high end courses only" kinda people.

[Josh Tarble]

you're talking to 3-time Marshall High School pickleball champion. 

It's a winter sport around here, commonly known as paddleball. Essentially a cross between tennis and racquetball played on a mini-court.  I believe pickleball is played with a wiffleball and plastic paddles while paddle ball is played with a lacrosse-type ball and wooden paddles.

You already refuse to play golf below 50 degrees and go south every winter. Now we learn you're a pickleball champion. You're going to be so in your element when we're all living in The Villages in 50 years.


No surprise that someone who doesn't know what pickleball is would also refuse to drink American macro lagers. People who play pickleball are down to earth Bud Light drinkin' folk. Kalen must be a CCFAD type.

I've already checked to see if they'd waive the minimum age requirement...

[Jason Thurman]

Lol...Sorry Jason, I'm a muni guy myself.    CCFAD/Private is certainly a luxury for this guy.

P.S.  Snobbery is not limited to just golf or beer.  You pick the hobby and I can guarantee you its chock full or every type from "muni guys" to the "high end courses only" kinda people.

That's exactly what a CCFAD type would say. Can anyone remember the last time Ben Cowan made a sweeping generalization that wasn't correct?


In fairness, I bought $300 worth of New Glarus beer to bring home with me when I played Whistling Straits a few weeks ago. So, just as Ben predicted, I'm a CCFAD type who doesn't drink Bud Light or play pickleball like the down to earth folks.

[Tommy Williamsen]

John, I'm not sure I know how to answer that question. I've seen a lot of courses. More than I care to enumerate. As one of my threads indicated I get bored easily on courses that are predictable. I belong to two courses that some might consider over the top. I brought a young man to Ballyhack who belongs to an Ed Ault course outside DC. He is used to a fairway bunker in the landing zone. The perfunctory bunkers left and right of the green and relatively benign greens where a twenty footer means a sure two putt or a make. As far as he was concerned Ballyhack was on the moon. He played college golf and didn't break 80 from the member tees. He hated it but he had not seen many courses outside his comfort zone. I brought another to Pine Valley who thought it was awful. "Is this really the best course in the world." I think architects need to design more courses that push the envelope or we will just end up with a plethora of vanilla courses where you can break 70 but don't challenge anyone.

[Carl Rogers]

But isn't this the issue that Trump's Waterfalls address (though over the top tastelessly) and what the late Mike Strantz did well (push the envelope on the tried and true).  Sweeten's Cove?!

In TD's writings through the years, I conclude that for someone who has seen it all multiple times, he likes the subtle, unselfconscious, the unpretentious & the none of the above.

[MCirba]

John, I'm not sure I know how to answer that question. I've seen a lot of courses. More than I care to enumerate. As one of my threads indicated I get bored easily on courses that are predictable. I belong to two courses that some might consider over the top. I brought a young man to Ballyhack who belongs to an Ed Ault course outside DC. He is used to a fairway bunker in the landing zone. The perfunctory bunkers left and right of the green and relatively benign greens where a twenty footer means a sure two putt or a make. As far as he was concerned Ballyhack was on the moon. He played college golf and didn't break 80 from the member tees. He hated it but he had not seen many courses outside his comfort zone.

Tommy,

That's an interesting point.   I thought of Ballyhack when I read John's first post here.

I recently played Ballyhack for the first time and though I'm probably one of those guys who's "seen it all" I can honestly say I haven't seen anything like Ballyhack prior.   I lost only one ball (on 15 which I still managed to par) and yet still shot 93.   I wasn't sure afterwards if I loved it or hated it but about a month later I realized that I'd really like another shot at figuring out that complex puzzle.

It is anything but the type of course one could get "easily bored" playing.   

[SL_Solow]

Barney,  I suppose I have a slightly different approach.  While I understand the need to meet the requirements of the owner who may have specific ideas, all things being equal, I think the objective should be to take the property and the budget involved and build the most interesting golf course possible.  Each architect may have a different perspective on those attributes which make for interesting golf and given the differences in sites and budgets, that leads to variances among courses.  But if one attempts to get the "best" out of each site, one need not consider whether one is designing for the design aficionado or the individual who knows little of the theory and history and is only looking for an enjoyable experience.  I am sure there are exceptions to this rule, e.g. tribute courses like Old Mac, but as a rule of thumb, I think this works pretty well.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shelly,


I don't think the people in these pictures, or their projected demographic, want the most strategic architecture. I think they want exactly what is pictured. In any long term relationship it's fine to be bored now and then. I see nothing wrong with, and as i grow older sometimes just hope for a feeling of calm and optic serenity. Of course being the drama queen that I am I rarely let it stick around for long. Which is exactly why people like me should not be telling golfing civilians what is best for them.


http://toscanacc.com

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - you've had a couple of particularly good one-liners on this thread; but as you probably know, very few drama queens become golf course architects, and so few of them tend to proscribe much of anything to golfing civilians. It may be time for more Tom Simpsons in the profession -- not quite drama queens but at least a little bit eccentric (maybe like someone who serves as The Dresser to a renowned Shakespearean actor).

Shelly - it strikes me that yours would be indeed an excellent goal and very useful guideline/approach (i.e. getting the best out of a site) if it weren't for the revolution that was earth-moving machines -- which revolution has meant, amongst other things, that "taste" and "theory" and so-called "imagination" (on the architects' parts) and "photographs" and "flyovers" on the part of owners/clients and marketers has supplanted the simple and egalitarian and value-neutral approach your espouse.     

[John Kavanaugh]

Wow, 99% of all critics I have ever met are drama queens. It doesn't make them bad people, just too quickly to be bored. This explains perfectly why I have butted heads with the best of them. Tommy, Gib, Brad....need I go on?

[Peter Pallotta]

 
Ah, I though you meant the architects, not the critics

Btw, that club website you linked was vaguely horrifying to me -- it may be because it makes up Italian words of all kinds, or perhaps I'm thrown off by the message of inclusivity it contains; it seems to say: "We welcome everyone, be you protestant and white, or white and protestant, or, you know, whatever - a brunette even...."   

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, it's a half fart/half compliment. If used in a sentence: I recently conflatulated my friend on his purchase of a large SUV.

Makes sense, I guess.