Stone Eagle

[Tommy Williamsen]

Played Stone Eagle in Palm Springs area today and loved it. It had plenty of room off the tee and fun shots into the greens. A lot of dirt must have been moved to create this course out of the rocky mountainous site. Curious to hear about Tom Doak's experience and how in the world you route a course on such a demanding mountain site.

[Dave McCollum]

The dirt had to be manufactured from crushed rock.  The achievement of the Renaissance team to produce this wonderful course cannot be exaggerated.  Mind boggling.

[Joel_Stewart]

I think you'll find a hundred threads if you use the search engine.

I'm curious to see how it's changed or softened over the last few years.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think you'll find a hundred threads if you use the search engine.

I'm curious to see how it's changed or softened over the last few years.

I looked and couldn't find any other threads. The course was firm but not real fast and the greens ran about 10 so they were puttable. The conditioning was similar to the Quarry the day before.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm curious to see how it's changed or softened over the last few years.

It hasn't really changed or softened much at all.  It's not a hard course -- one of the assistant pros shot 62 the year it opened -- but it is tricky to score on for most people because it's hard to dial in how the elevation changes will affect the approach shot.  We did make a small change to the 1st green a couple of years after the course opened, at the developer's request, but you're still dead if you're above the hole there.


When I was out there a year ago February, I mentioned that they'd allowed a lot of landscape materials in the rocks to get out of control, so that it was easier to lose balls at the margins, and sometimes even catch a plant with a shot that would have otherwise carried to the fairway ... when I was out this February, they'd cut all that stuff way back.  They are really taking great care of the place.


The one other change was that they were expanding the Aerie so that they could do dinner more often up there, but unfortunately, it was still under construction on my wife's birthday.




Tommy:


Yes, it was definitely one of the most difficult jobs we've built.  There was a lot of earthmoving, but the trick was being able to keep as many of the big rock outcroppings as we could as backdrops or between holes, and do all of our earthwork in the valleys in between.  We were right at the limit of acceptable uphill / downhill grades ... luckily I was familiar enough with Pasatiempo to know that you could have a decent hole that played 80 or 90 feet uphill.  And all of the uphill holes play straight toward the big mountain backdrop, so it never feels like you are playing up to the skyline at all.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I appreciated the thought that went into each hole. While the fairways were wide there was definitely a preferred side. The longer holes allowed me to hit a low runner and get on. The par threes, including 19, are stunners. I could play it every day and didn't see one of those little squirmers with no shoulders.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, how'd you like the fairway bunker on 8?  "Danger Will Robinson!"

[Tommy Williamsen]

Fortunately I missed it. The bunkering is interesting. I was in only one. Some are seriously deep and avoiding them is imperative.

[John Cowden]

So the architect's experience at Pasatiempo went a long way to informing his layout at Stone Eagle.  That's a superb compliment to both tracks.  And the architect, too. 

[Jerry Kluger]

We played the King's Putter out there quite a few years ago. One of the guys I played with shot even par hitting nearly every green but didn't make a putt so really good players can go low. It is a whole lot of fun and refreshing change from most of the fairly flat courses in the area.

[John Kavanaugh]

The whiniest of all King's Putters.

[Chris DeToro]

Played out here a few weeks ago and it's now my favorite course in the desert.  It's definitely different from most of the other courses in the area that are built in the valley vs basically on the mountain.  Elevation changes play a huge role, not only from tee to green, but also putting where the influence of the mountain is still somewhat subtle. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Here you go: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23848.0.html

[Kalen Braley]

I was fortunate to get out there this last winter and I was very impressed with what I saw, especially considering how difficult that terrain must have been to start with.

The greens were the most interesting to me as they had a lot of subtle break to them and certainly required local knowledge to know which side of the fairway was the preferred to approach from.  #13 stood out the most, just a terrific green with lots on stuff going on...I could have stopped for a hour and tried out different putts.

[AChao]

I think it's excellent and visually spectacular.  I haven't played there in far too long, but when it's windy I think the course is quite difficult.  Without wind, about medium in difficulty, but tough to make birdies -- hard to hit approach shots close enough even though greens were perfect.  Some of the holes are just spectacular!

[Frank Sekulic]

I am playing there on Tuesday and vey much looking forward to it

[Tom_Doak]

especially considering how difficult that terrain must have been to start with.

Actually, the most difficult thing about the terrain was just trying to walk around my potential holes in the field, before we started building anything.  Just getting from the clubhouse area to the 5th fairway took about a half hour of climbing down through multiple steep ravines, and back up the other side, over boulders and cactus.  I used to kid Eric Iverson that it was a good thing we were still young ... my knees wouldn't handle it now!

[David_Elvins]

Tom Doak,

Amazing design, is it the biggest budget you have worked with?

How did that affect the design process?

[John Kavanaugh]

To quote the Red Raider "Stone Eagle:  well, I have thought long and hard about it, and that's no lie as I had 7 hours in the car yesterday in which to ponder.  I came off the first round there - played as a 2nd round of the day in intense heat, near exhaustion, playing awful... and I said it was my least favorite Doak course by far, as it was just way too severe, way too over the top.  Well... after a second round there, in the more managable morning temps, and playing much better... I've come to assess the course like this:  it is VERY severe.  Yes the fairways are wide, and in fact one can find one's golf ball sometimes on tee shots that would be off the world at other courses... BUT... just about every single green has the rocks on both sides, or if not, some VERY deep bunkers with VERY soft sand... the end effect being it's the approach shots that really make the course so severe.  The low handicapper will likely have no issues with the course in terms of severity - his impression will be based on whether he likes mountain golf or not.  I just can't see a high handicapper ever getting much enjoyment there... and choice of tees won't matter - it's all in the approach shots and it can't be much fun to lose that many balls on such shots, as he will.  Of course there's nothing else Doak could have done, given the site... He did do one hell of a job to make a pretty darn fun golf course out of that mountainside... I'm just having a hard time believing anyone with a handicap over 14 would enjoy the course long-term.  Maybe I'm wrong.  In any case, in the end I did find it pretty damn fun.  But I'm a 5 hdcp. - my game this weekend nothwithstanding.      I guess one possible bottom line is this:  I have never been so convinced of a course that George Pazin would hate.  He's a relatively high handicapper who also doesn't like desert/mountain golf.  He didn't care much for Black Mesa.  I think if he played Stone Eagle he might be left catatonic!   " what say you?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Amazing design, is it the biggest budget you have worked with?

How did that affect the design process?

Stone Eagle was the most expensive construction project we've done in the U.S.A.  Dredging several million yards of fill in China wasn't cheap, either, but it's almost impossible to compare costs over there.


As I explained above, though, we benefitted greatly from all the features of the site, which gave us many things to hold onto in the grading process.  It wasn't a wall-to-wall grading exercise where you have to make invented features look natural.  We had a lot of great features to tie back into -- not just the rock pinnacles, but the ravine going up the left side of #5, or the saddle behind #6 green, or the deep crossing ravine which became the bunker on the right of #8 fairway after we filled across to the left of it -- and many of them were so steep that you could cut or fill several feet right up against them without it looking out of character.  So we just had to take big equipment and melt down all the ruggedness in between those features into something you could mow, that wasn't too steep for a ball to stop.


Of course, the more work you've got to do, the slower the process.  It's tough to work at a stop-and-start pace where you only have a couple of holes at a time to do creative work on, and then you have to wait for the big machines again.  Working in sand is a whole lot faster, so it's easier to stay in a creative groove.  On the other hand, there were a couple of holes where Eric had enough time to think of an alternative to our original plan that involved moving less earth and coming up with a cooler hole.  The approach to #2 is one of those; #15 is another.




John K:  I remember very clearly that many of the heat-exhausted players at the King's Putter did not like the course at all.  I've had chances to spend time there the past two winters, and I just think they're nuts.  I'm somewhere between a 5 and a 14-handicap, so maybe your quote is correct, that high handicappers would hate the course, which you could also say about a bunch of courses rated more highly than Stone Eagle.  But the membership is not exactly brimming with low handicappers, so I'm not sure it's right that the average player can't enjoy it. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom...Doak that is, I agree with you. The critics are nuts.

[Tom_Doak]

I have had the thought a couple of times that we might have erred in not making the course harder.


My original clients expected to sell memberships to the same guys they'd sold to at The Reserve ... wealthy retired dudes that were just average golfers.  [Bill Gates was one of them.]  So, all the feedback on my design was to make it even wider and more playable for the senior guys.


I didn't understand the Palm Desert market at the time ... it's basically like the Hamptons for the West Coast, only a winter destination obviously, and a lot more populous at that.  There are tons of younger guys who could afford to belong to a second club, and lots of very good players with really no courses that cater to them.  The site was so rugged, maybe it could have been some sort of west coast Pine Valley, or at least I think there's a market for that.  Stone Eagle is much rockier off the fairways than Pine Valley is, and I could just barely find enough room for a 6800-yard course with what I had.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I found the course to be wide off the tee but with undulating fairways that made you pay attention to your lie and resulting ball flight. You have to play the terrain and allow for the roll. If you don't think your way are Stone Eagle you won't have much success. If I lived in the valley I'd join.

[John Kavanaugh]

Then move.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak,

Amazing design, is it the biggest budget you have worked with?

How did that affect the design process?

John K:  I remember very clearly that many of the heat-exhausted players at the King's Putter did not like the course at all.  I've had chances to spend time there the past two winters, and I just think they're nuts.  I'm somewhere between a 5 and a 14-handicap, so maybe your quote is correct, that high handicappers would hate the course, which you could also say about a bunch of courses rated more highly than Stone Eagle.  But the membership is not exactly brimming with low handicappers, so I'm not sure it's right that the average player can't enjoy it.

I don't know who you talked to after that Kings Putter, but I, and the guys I played with, were okay with the heat and loved Stone Eagle.  I wouldn't have been happy walking, but okay in a cart.  Lots of great holes at Stone Eagle.