Wells Fargo

[Cliff Hamm]

 Watching the Wells Fargo. Is this the silly golf season or the U.S. Open?

[BHoover]

It's the first week of May.

[Steve Lang]

   Watched Rory hit a 220 yard 8-iron, does that qualify for silly-season?

[jeffwarne]

  Watched Rory hit a 220 yard 8-iron, does that qualify for silly-season?

Hope it was on a driveable par 4...

[Tim Leahy]

Does this course have anyones interest for next years PGA?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Does this course have anyones interest for next years PGA?

Mine. I think it'll play totally different on an all bermudagrass surface.

[Matt MacIver]

Mine too.


QH is getting all new greens, starting tomorrow.


There's been a ton of wind the last few days, probably a two-club wind in some places at least. It's a long, hard course. The last three holes (par 4/3/4) measure like 480/220/520. 

[Dave McCollum]

Is this an unique American approach to golf architecture?  Take a OK golf course and send it to plastic surgeons every couple of years hoping, on Oscar night, it wows the runway cameras.  As why, and the answer is because we can.  Augusta is not a concept we need to franchise.   

[Kalen Braley]

Is this an unique American approach to golf architecture?  Take a OK golf course and send it to plastic surgeons every couple of years hoping, on Oscar night, it wows the runway cameras.  As why, and the answer is because we can.  Augusta is not a concept we need to franchise.

Dave,

I don't see this as a problem.  The soon to be new First Lady Melania does this every couple of years, so whats good for the goose.....

[Dave McCollum]

OK, I'll shut up.  I just find it a little ridiculous.  It's not like they are evolving a course into a masterpiece, but maybe they are trying.  Strikes me that they're spending all this money for a place for pros to play.  Seems a lot like the Florida Swing to me.  Not my course, not my members, not likely I'll ever see it except on TV.  Rather like the example Kalen cited, it's showbiz.  Nothing wrong with that except the example it sets for the vast majority of golf courses, one that would ensure more closures, bankruptcies, and less golf.  Ultimately, I suppose few care except the owners and the folks that live in the McMansions lining the fairways.           

[Anthony_Nysse]

OK, I'll shut up.  I just find it a little ridiculous.  It's not like they are evolving a course into a masterpiece, but maybe they are trying.  Strikes me that they're spending all this money for a place for pros to play.  Seems a lot like the Florida Swing to me.  Not my course, not my members, not likely I'll ever see it except on TV.  Rather like the example Kalen cited, it's showbiz.  Nothing wrong with that except the example it sets for the vast majority of golf courses, one that would ensure more closures, bankruptcies, and less golf.  Ultimately, I suppose few care except the owners and the folks that live in the McMansions lining the fairways.           

  Considering the status of the course 15 years ago and the quality of the field at the onset of the event, they certainly have turned it into one of the premier events on tour, so maybe it is evolving into some sort of masterpiece. Over the next 5 years, they will host 3 more PGA Tour Events, a PGA Championship and Presidents Cup. Not many places can say that.
  The volunteer staff for maintenance comes from all over the country to spend the week there because of the caliber of conditioning. Without going into to much detail, one can see where they are trying to emulate an Augusta-like feel with the overseed, bunker style, rolling grounds, level of conditions and consulting architect. 
  The Florida swing isn't a good comparison. Most of the FL courses are very flat, several are played on all bermudagrass surfaces and offer a complete different tone of the event.
  It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but Id say it's made more noise in the last 10 years than any course on tour with its status and respect.
 

[Mark Pritchett]

It certainly has my attention.  I think the PGA will be a huge success for Quail Hollow. 


I suppose if QH had hairy bunkers and a reversible routing this crowd would have more interest.

[A.G._Crockett]

What am I missing?  It's not like they were shooting 61's or something, is it?  It looks like a terrific golf course to me, and everybody I've talked to that has actually played Quail Hollow loves it.  That the club continues to work on the course to improve it seems a virtue, not a vice, doesn't it?

I, too, look forward to seeing the golf course in summer conditions with bermuda grass instead of winter rye; I think it will be very different, both visually and in terms of how it plays. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Well said Anthony, Mark and AG!


Charlotte wants to be THE southern sports town and Quail Hollow is trying to keep pace with East Lake I think more so than Augusta. QH is a big time club with amazing facilities. They have the funds to tweak to their hearts content.

[Carson Pilcher]

Well said Anthony, Mark and AG!


Charlotte wants to be THE southern sports town and Quail Hollow is trying to keep pace with East Lake I think more so than Augusta. QH is a big time club with amazing facilities. They have the funds to tweak to their hearts content.

I also agree.  For one, it was founded by an Augusta National member (not sure if he still owns it out right).  The pros seem to like the course and it sets up like Golf Club of Houston with fast firm greens.


The only point I thought yesterday is that the greens are so firm it was hard to hold a shot.  Unfortunately, the course was not designed to invite a run up shot so they had to fly it in there and hope for the best.

[Kalen Braley]

OK, I'll shut up.  I just find it a little ridiculous.  It's not like they are evolving a course into a masterpiece, but maybe they are trying.  Strikes me that they're spending all this money for a place for pros to play.  Seems a lot like the Florida Swing to me.  Not my course, not my members, not likely I'll ever see it except on TV.  Rather like the example Kalen cited, it's showbiz.  Nothing wrong with that except the example it sets for the vast majority of golf courses, one that would ensure more closures, bankruptcies, and less golf.  Ultimately, I suppose few care except the owners and the folks that live in the McMansions lining the fairways.           

Dave,

I should have put winky-winks and grins on my last post, because I was just trying to be a smart azz and work a little Trump stuff in it to boot. 

I think you make an excellent point in this thread, and its sad to see the more absurd things of the Augusta model actually making its way into other venues.  Its one thing to want to have a green course, but I think this sets a very bad precedent for other courses who now think they must go under the knife and perform some serious cutting and slicing to be "worthy major".

[A.G._Crockett]

OK, I'll shut up.  I just find it a little ridiculous.  It's not like they are evolving a course into a masterpiece, but maybe they are trying.  Strikes me that they're spending all this money for a place for pros to play.  Seems a lot like the Florida Swing to me.  Not my course, not my members, not likely I'll ever see it except on TV.  Rather like the example Kalen cited, it's showbiz.  Nothing wrong with that except the example it sets for the vast majority of golf courses, one that would ensure more closures, bankruptcies, and less golf.  Ultimately, I suppose few care except the owners and the folks that live in the McMansions lining the fairways.           

Dave,

I should have put winky-winks and grins on my last post, because I was just trying to be a smart azz and work a little Trump stuff in it to boot. 

I think you make an excellent point in this thread, and its sad to see the more absurd things of the Augusta model actually making its way into other venues.  Its one thing to want to have a green course, but I think this sets a very bad precedent for other courses who now think they must go under the knife and perform some serious cutting and slicing to be "worthy major".

This is linking two very different issues (or non-issues) together, so let's take a second and separate them.

As to the color green:  If you throw rye grass seed in your yard in the southeast, you will have thick, emerald green grass all winter long; it's lovely, and it'll last until the heat comes and kills it and the dormant bermuda comes back.  Rye is green no matter what; it isn't a maintenance question or decision.  And we had a lot of rain all winter and a slow warmup this spring, so rye is REALLY green right now.  Like most homeowners with bermuda lawns, most courses don't overseed with rye because it costs a lot of money, has to be mowed all winter, and it can slow up the bermuda grow-in the next spring.  But of course "most courses" don't host the Masters in April or the Wells Fargo in May, so they DO overseed.  Neither of those courses will look anything like they do now by the end of June, much less the end of August.  But even at that, this is the SE US; it's a humid subtropical climate with clay soil, and the bermuda grass will be a lovely green for the most part as well.  Wishing or believing that a super in Charlotte, NC can or should make his course look like St. Andrews is misguided.

As to tweaking the course:  When did this become either news or in some way not admirable?  Great courses the world over have done this through the decades, and lesser courses do it as well IF they have the money.  The idea that a club shouldn't undertake changes to make their golf course better is odd to me, to say the least; if someone can quantify how ANGC, or the Old Course, or Pinehurst #2, or Oakmont, just to name a few, are worse off for changes made over the years, I'd love to see the data on that.  I don't know why Quail Hollow should be considered any differently.  Heck, I applaud that club for continuing to try to make things better.

[Anthony_Nysse]

OK, I'll shut up.  I just find it a little ridiculous.  It's not like they are evolving a course into a masterpiece, but maybe they are trying.  Strikes me that they're spending all this money for a place for pros to play.  Seems a lot like the Florida Swing to me.  Not my course, not my members, not likely I'll ever see it except on TV.  Rather like the example Kalen cited, it's showbiz.  Nothing wrong with that except the example it sets for the vast majority of golf courses, one that would ensure more closures, bankruptcies, and less golf.  Ultimately, I suppose few care except the owners and the folks that live in the McMansions lining the fairways.           

Dave,

I should have put winky-winks and grins on my last post, because I was just trying to be a smart azz and work a little Trump stuff in it to boot. 

I think you make an excellent point in this thread, and its sad to see the more absurd things of the Augusta model actually making its way into other venues.  Its one thing to want to have a green course, but I think this sets a very bad precedent for other courses who now think they must go under the knife and perform some serious cutting and slicing to be "worthy major".

This is linking two very different issues (or non-issues) together, so let's take a second and separate them.

As to the color green:  If you throw rye grass seed in your yard in the southeast, you will have thick, emerald green grass all winter long; it's lovely, and it'll last until the heat comes and kills it and the dormant bermuda comes back.  Rye is green no matter what; it isn't a maintenance question or decision.  And we had a lot of rain all winter and a slow warmup this spring, so rye is REALLY green right now.  Like most homeowners with bermuda lawns, most courses don't overseed with rye because it costs a lot of money, has to be mowed all winter, and it can slow up the bermuda grow-in the next spring.  But of course "most courses" don't host the Masters in April or the Wells Fargo in May, so they DO overseed.  Neither of those courses will look anything like they do now by the end of June, much less the end of August.  But even at that, this is the SE US; it's a humid subtropical climate with clay soil, and the bermuda grass will be a lovely green for the most part as well.  Wishing or believing that a super in Charlotte, NC can or should make his course look like St. Andrews is misguided.

As to tweaking the course:  When did this become either news or in some way not admirable?  Great courses the world over have done this through the decades, and lesser courses do it as well IF they have the money.  The idea that a club shouldn't undertake changes to make their golf course better is odd to me, to say the least; if someone can quantify how ANGC, or the Old Course, or Pinehurst #2, or Oakmont, just to name a few, are worse off for changes made over the years, I'd love to see the data on that.  I don't know why Quail Hollow should be considered any differently.  Heck, I applaud that club for continuing to try to make things better.

EXTREMELY well stated. Many of the courses we see on TV or admire on the site go through changes, some every season, to a certain degree.
  In many cases, every British Open site rebuilds bunkers and or moves them. Every US Open courses has some sort of tweaking before the even. This is really no different in my mind to some of the changes that QH is making.

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree. It will be great to see the course without the overseeding. Maybe it will be a little brown and firm. Would love to see ANGC in its natural state.

[A.G._Crockett]

I agree. It will be great to see the course without the overseeding. Maybe it will be a little brown and firm. Would love to see ANGC in its natural state.

Jerry,
Don't get your hopes up too much.  Charlotte ain't the Sandhills, and getting a bermuda grass course on clay soil to be a little brown and firm is a matter of weather much more than anything the super can or can't do.  Bermuda grass in August is typically GREEN to VERY green, and while it'll almost certainly be faster than it has been for the Wells Fargo, that will be very much weather dependent.  If we get in a pattern of afternoon thunderstorms the week(s) before the PGA, which is sort of typical for that time of year, then there won't be anything much the super can do to speed things up. (But the rough will be an absolute muther in that case, btw.)

The greens will be night and day different, of course.  But the course won't look like Pinehurst #2 did for the US Open, and it won't play that way unless we have an epic drought in the meantime.  It just can't be done, except by Mother Nature.  That might be a little bit of an oversimplification, but not much.

[Kalen Braley]

AG,

I understand your point on the grass, and I did know why they use Rye in situation like this, which hey I can't argue that.

As to constantly slicing and dicing...I'll just say that after spending big money with course closures and the like, stuff doesn't always turn out how one expects....which leads to more and more edits/knife work until you finally get left with a natural stunner that turns into...well...

[Carl Johnson]

I agree. It will be great to see the course without the overseeding. Maybe it will be a little brown and firm. Would love to see ANGC in its natural state.

Jerry,
Don't get your hopes up too much.  Charlotte ain't the Sandhills, and getting a bermuda grass course on clay soil to be a little brown and firm is a matter of weather much more than anything the super can or can't do.  Bermuda grass in August is typically GREEN to VERY green, and while it'll almost certainly be faster than it has been for the Wells Fargo, that will be very much weather dependent.  If we get in a pattern of afternoon thunderstorms the week(s) before the PGA, which is sort of typical for that time of year, then there won't be anything much the super can do to speed things up. (But the rough will be an absolute muther in that case, btw.)

The greens will be night and day different, of course.  But the course won't look like Pinehurst #2 did for the US Open, and it won't play that way unless we have an epic drought in the meantime.  It just can't be done, except by Mother Nature.  That might be a little bit of an oversimplification, but not much.

I don't know about green vs. brown, but can't you deal with speed of the fairways and depth of the rough by just putting your mowers to work?

[A.G._Crockett]

I agree. It will be great to see the course without the overseeding. Maybe it will be a little brown and firm. Would love to see ANGC in its natural state.

Jerry,
Don't get your hopes up too much.  Charlotte ain't the Sandhills, and getting a bermuda grass course on clay soil to be a little brown and firm is a matter of weather much more than anything the super can or can't do.  Bermuda grass in August is typically GREEN to VERY green, and while it'll almost certainly be faster than it has been for the Wells Fargo, that will be very much weather dependent.  If we get in a pattern of afternoon thunderstorms the week(s) before the PGA, which is sort of typical for that time of year, then there won't be anything much the super can do to speed things up. (But the rough will be an absolute muther in that case, btw.)

The greens will be night and day different, of course.  But the course won't look like Pinehurst #2 did for the US Open, and it won't play that way unless we have an epic drought in the meantime.  It just can't be done, except by Mother Nature.  That might be a little bit of an oversimplification, but not much.

I don't know about green vs. brown, but can't you deal with speed of the fairways and depth of the rough by just putting your mowers to work?

Yes, to an extent.  But only to a point.  Clay soil just doesn't drain like sand, which I know you know anyway.  Clay-based golf courses tend to be either very soft, or hard as concrete, depending on the recent rainfall; the variations are just extreme. 

To oversimplify for the sake of discussion, courses in the SE on clay will only be very firm in August IF there has been extreme heat and drought.  But that isn't the normal pattern in the summer, though; August is THE month with the single heaviest average rainfall in Charlotte, and July isn't far behind.  A pattern of heavy afternoon thundershowers can get stuck that time of year, and there is nothing a super and mowers can do about it.  A clay-base golf course that has had average rainfall in August will NOT be fast, much less brown.

So yes, they can shave the fairways to make them faster, and yes, they can adjust the height of the rough as well.  But Mother Nature will determine what that course looks like and how it plays in August of 2017 far more than the super, and Charlotte's climate says that the course will be green and rather slow for the tastes of the GCA crowd.

[Matthew Rose]

This time they've decided to rip out entire holes. Eliminating a whole par-three and then splitting up a par-five into two holes. Any particular reason for the routing change?

[Dave McCollum]

I did say there is nothing wrong with improving your course, except for the example it sets as a quest for perfection that is beyond the means of most clubs, courses, and golfers.  I admit regrassing your greens every 3 years seems extreme to me.  However, as a modest, affordable course, the last thing we need is for our golfers to expect similar conditions.  We can't do it at the prices we charge and if we raised our prices, they would leave for cheaper alternatives.  We have golfers who look at courses on TV like PH2, Chambers, British Open venues, and say "that's ugly, I'd never play a piece of s**t like that."  It's ignorance and outside their experience, so understandable.  But where exactly did they develop this view of golf?  Overseeding, regrassing, perfectly uniform greens, playing surfaces, colors, and gorgeous TV imagery?  Am I jealous?  Not really, I just think the game bigger than that and can be enjoyed equally well at a Sheep Ranch as it can at Quail Hollow.  This quest for perfection does not promote that concept.