[Mike_Young]

As it has become cooler, hipper or whatever  to design/build than it used to be, it seems we see more and more archies with pr photos of themselves on sand pros or other machines floating greens or building bunkers.  For those of us who have been building our courses for years and have always basically worked from the field we realize that we can operate these machines but the practicality of doing so is not there.  I call BS on the entire thing with these machines.  The guys that do it all day are much better at taking our idea than we are at operating their machines.  BUT it makes a good photo

[Ally Mcintosh]

You're probably right, Mike.

Architect beside machine with steel toe-caps up on blade / bucket has become the new Architect on back of Land Rover holding full scale plan and pointing in to the distance.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Mike, call it BS if you want, but thanks to designers sitting on Sand Pros we get greens that correspond better to the intent of the design.

 
You guessed it - I wouldn't let anybody else but me do the final finish with the sand pro.
I can safely say I can handle a JD Sand Pro better than anyone out there - certainly nobody uses reverse gear as much as I do!!!

 
So though your cynical self thinks it's just a tool for a photo op, it also an indication of the "hand on" methods of many dedicated and passionate designers.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, call it BS if you want, but thanks to designers sitting on Sand Pros we get greens that correspond better to the intent of the design.

 
You guessed it - I wouldn't let anybody else but me do the final finish with the sand pro.
I can safely say I can handle a JD Sand Pro better than anyone out there - certainly nobody uses reverse gear as much as I do!!!

 
So though your cynical self thinks it's just a tool for a photo op, it also an indication of the "hand on" methods of many dedicated and passionate designers.

John,
I have become cynical about much of this business over the years.  And I will continue to call BS especially to "but thanks to designers sitting on Sand Pros we get greens that correspond better to the intent of the design." types of comments.

You may be the exception, I'm not saying you are not.  I know I am but then I have always built my own and perhaps the same applies for you.  The majority of the photo ops I have seen of archies on a sand pro are just some guy on top of a green for some photos and to connect with the contractor etc... IMHO you are correct in your statement above when it works but in most cases it doesn't.

[Anthony_Nysse]

As it has become cooler, hipper or whatever  to design/build than it used to be, it seems we see more and more archies with pr photos of themselves on sand pros or other machines floating greens or building bunkers.  For those of us who have been building our courses for years and have always basically worked from the field we realize that we can operate these machines but the practicality of doing so is not there.  I call BS on the entire thing with these machines.  The guys that do it all day are much better at taking our idea than we are at operating their machines.  BUT it makes a good photo

I watched Bill Coore finalize every green at Friars Head, 1/2' by 1/2' on a Smithco.  Our architect, Chris Lutzke, has done the rough shape with a Cat D# and the final contours with a Smithco on every green here, thus far and do not expect it to change. He learned from Pete. Bill worked for Pete at one time, also. Being a follower of Gil Hanses' Instagram, he's not afraid to post some pics of a sandpro and I fully believe that how he finalizes greens.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,  You, Cynical?  Whoda Thunkit.

You might be right.   So, where do the architects point in those pictures, the gas tank?  As in "fill her up, I got work to do?"

And do they still have the far away look in their eyes?

I am cynical, too.  It's still PR as much as anything.

[Peter Pallotta]

If random contours and quirky greens are in style, wouldn't it be better to have someone who doesn't know what they're doing sitting on a Smithco? I mean, Mike/John/Ally/Bill C have actually become experts on using the sand pros, which means the greens they're shaping turn out exactly as they intended -- and where's the fun/quirk in that? Sure, the greens come out great, but those guys have to work and concentrate really hard to get them just so. Now, on the other hand, slap someone like me on a Smithco for the first time in my life and turn me loose and who can tell what magical accidents and subtle quirk and dramatic contours would emerge.  I mean, if I managed not to run it into a garden shed or the clubhouse wall the randomness I'd get with a Smithco might be groundbreakingly outstanding -- and as a bonus, every green would probably end up being 20,000 square feet! Am I wrong?      

[Anthony_Nysse]

and as a bonus, every green would probably end up being 20,000 square feet! Am I wrong?      

Too many 20k ft greens equal a lot of $$$

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Peter, if only that was true !!


The truth is that a Sand Pro operator who is not truly aware of the concept of the greens shape, the subtle tie ins and differential accents of slopes, can soften the shaping in seconds. A few extra speed runs in the wrong direction with the rake down, or even worse with repeated runs off the metal latticed drag nets and the greens can go from interesting to bland.


For the designers who offer something special and do their own sand pro work, they know it's essential.

[Mike_Young]

OK..everyone is mentioning the exceptions to the rule as would be expected.  The reason so many are now photoing is due to a GH or a BC.  And yes, most of the ones that know how can do it but they also know there is someone on their team who has been doing it much longer and can get it down to the final 1/2 inch. 

But to see some of the sigs sitting on these machines one just has to hope they don't really turn the key...

[BHoover]

My two-year old son, who is obsessed with trucks, tractors and all forms of earth-moving equipment, would LOVE to take a turn driving one of these greens-shaping machines!

[JJShanley]

This is not an access thread!      Tell your kid that he needs to save up his lemonade stand earnings (you **have** put him to work, haven't you?) before he gets to enjoy such pleasures.

My two-year old son, who is obsessed with trucks, tractors and all forms of earth-moving equipment, would LOVE to take a turn driving one of these greens-shaping machines!

[BHoover]

He starts an internship with the local landscaping company in a few weeks. No more watching Curious George and pushing around his toy lawnmower in the backyard all day!

[Don Mahaffey]

Mike, I think you've whiffed on this one
I'm working right now with two young architects, one who shaped everything and one who has finished it all, tee to green, on a custom "sand pro" he built.  The finish quality is as good as anything I've ever seen.   
Yes, there are photo op guys out there, but there are also plenty who want to put their ideas in the ground and just because you do it differently does not mean your way is the only way. 
I have a hard time being critical of a guy willing to take years to hone a craft, and then using it while eating dirt for weeks making sure everything is just as he wants when he gets the chance to put his name on something.

[Mike_Young]

Don,
I don't think I whiffed at all.  It's the guys like you are working with who have been an integral part of turning this "profession" and it is those types who are making the others who have been doing a site visit here and htere while allowing a large GC to build their course who are now having photos done while "in the dirt"...
As you know for many years those of us who built our own stuff were frowned upon.  Now some of the ones who were doing the frowning are doing photo ops with dozers and sand pros...I think you just read me wrong on this one....

[paul cowley]

...you just need to ask them whether they prefer their machines hydraulic or not....just saying.

[Don Mahaffey]

The guys who are confident operators don't ever pose on equipment. You might sneak a pic of them with your camera phone but they never pose on equipment.  Not hard to spot the posers.   
Mike, when you post these types of threads, why not name names instead of grouping all together? Those who work with these guys know the truth so why not call out the posers instead of indicting everyone who works on a machine? There are plenty of design build guys who are very capable in the field be it with a rake, shovel, hoe, dozer, GPS unit, or in the office with CAD, Photoshop, or pencil.
In fact I'd say we've never been so blessed as we are now with guys who can work sun up to sun down in the field and still find the time to draw nice sketches or plans in the evenings. 

[Tom_Doak]

So whose photo was it, Mike?


I have had photographers following me around sites for 25 years and been asked to assume ridiculous poses several times [for example, the GOLF DIGEST guy insisted I pose in the bucket of the excavator].  Usually I do it, because I don't want to get called a prima donna, but photos like that follow you around forever.


The two pics I've insisted people NOT take are (1) me holding a set of plans, even on the rare occasions when I have one on site, and (2) me running a bulldozer, because I only rarely get on the dozer anymore when we are short-handed, and I don't want to pretend I do it more than I do.


But, what does that leave?  I spend most of my time on site walking around and looking and thinking and talking to the crew, and photographers don't do well with any of that.


Whether you are good at it or not, if you are getting your picture taken doing it, it's all part of the show.  Yes, Bill Coore spends a lot of time on a sand pro, because he likes to ... otherwise he could leave it to guys like Keith Rhebb, who Don is referring to here.  But Bill is not pictured running a sand pro in a golf magazine, or posting photos of himself on Instagram.  He would probably ask Anthony to remove the pictures above if he knew they'd been posted. 


As for myself, I have at least three people working on every job who are better at operating the sand pro than I am, and they're the same people who were there when we were working on the intricacies of the green shape to begin with, so I'm happy just to watch them and edit, and check them with a transit every once in a while.  I don't need to build the whole course myself; our job is only to make sure it's right.  No matter how good you are at building things, letting go of that and including others is part of getting better as an architect.

[Kalen Braley]

Cmon Mike,

Whether you're a politician or the Pope....or even a GCA...its always about the photo-op!! 

[Bill_McBride]

Isn't this really the transition from large shops like Nicklaus and Trent Jones and Fazio, with many associates and ties to construction companies, to the modern artisan, hands on shop with a few actors who do the work themselves or with a small cadre of shapers?


I've played two wonderful courses designed by Rod Whitman and seen him in action on a bulldozer at Cabot Cliffs.  I think that's more the model of the future than the big shops of old. 

[Mike_Young]

The guys who are confident operators don't ever pose on equipment. You might sneak a pic of them with your camera phone but they never pose on equipment.  Not hard to spot the posers.   
Mike, when you post these types of threads, why not name names instead of grouping all together? Those who work with these guys know the truth so why not call out the posers instead of indicting everyone who works on a machine? There are plenty of design build guys who are very capable in the field be it with a rake, shovel, hoe, dozer, GPS unit, or in the office with CAD, Photoshop, or pencil.
In fact I'd say we've never been so blessed as we are now with guys who can work sun up to sun down in the field and still find the time to draw nice sketches or plans in the evenings.

Don,
I'm not going to call out anyone but at the same time I don't see it as stereotyping because as you say the confident operators would never pose on equipment.
All I was saying is that the design/build guys have forced the "rolled plan" guys to photo op on machines..it was never a slap at the design/build.  For years the design/build was frowned upon and I find it amusing when I see those same dudes coming out....

[Ian Andrew]

Since you'll never catch me with plans ... one for you Mike

[Greg Tallman]

Mike, a positive topic once a year might aid your cause, can't just cast stones all day, most days... Just sayin'

Tom explains the photo concept well and it's the folks paying millions that want it. Guess what? They get it!

[Don Mahaffey]

Selfie, sand pro, top 10 logo and a lunch box big enough for 12 labatts.  Cool

Since you'll never catch me with plans ... one for you Mike

[Mike_Young]

Greg,
This is my entertainment so I just try to stir sh*t...I'm not really that negative and I don't really have a cause.

Ian,
Thanks for the photo...nice hat....

Don and TD,
No names but a tour player...

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