What is the best hole in the world and why?

[Eric Smith]

A hole I haven't seen mentioned yet is the par 5 sixteenth at Shinnecock. Its one of the most beautiful holes in the game and yet can be a real beast with its seemingly endless barrage of deep and punishing bunkers guarding the corners of its zig-zagging fairway. Find yourself out of position and you're faced with some rather daunting semi blind approaches. Tough to gauge your swing or the proper angle when the wind is whipping and you can't see over the gnarly bunker in front of you! I've played Shinnecock twice now and both times made mental errors on 16 that ended up costing me, but I've also watched others play the hole beautifully so I know that it isn't unyielding. When I think about Shinnecock I almost always think of the 16th and believe it to be one of the very best holes I've played anywhere.

[V. Kmetz]

From Longest to Shortest at Most of the Common Yardages


#9 Mohansic#4 Bethpage Black - #1 overall
#15 Siwanoy
#4 Pine Valley
#3 Augusta National

#10 Riviera
#5 Fishers
#9 CC of Fairfield
[size=78%]# 13 Winged Foot East[/size]

[Søren Rye]

#9 at RCD

- fantastic view from the tee
- tee shot hangs in the middle of the sky with the Mourne Mountains as a backdrop and then falls out of sight
- the walk down the hill to the fairway spotting your ball
- great approach shot framed by dunes with the clubhouse behind

[Niall C]

#9 at RCD

- fantastic view from the tee
- tee shot hangs in the middle of the sky with the Mourne Mountains as a backdrop and then falls out of sight
- the walk down the hill to the fairway spotting your ball
- great approach shot framed by dunes with the clubhouse behind

None of those reasons relates to architecture unless you consider the original architect designed the hole for the aesthetics, which I don't know but suspect not.


Niall

[Søren Rye]

#9 at RCD

- fantastic view from the tee
- tee shot hangs in the middle of the sky with the Mourne Mountains as a backdrop and then falls out of sight
- the walk down the hill to the fairway spotting your ball
- great approach shot framed by dunes with the clubhouse behind

None of those reasons relates to architecture unless you consider the original architect designed the hole for the aesthetics, which I don't know but suspect not.


Niall

So you don't consider position of tee, blind vs non-blind shots, use of landscape to frame and protect the green architectural elements? Ok ...

[Niall C]

So you don't consider position of tee, blind vs non-blind shots, use of landscape to frame and protect the green architectural elements? Ok ...

I consider position of tee, fairway, hazards and green in relation to each other, how they are laid out over the landscape (or how the landscape has been created with them in it) and as a consequence how the hole plays, to be the essence of architecture. Whether you have a nice view and the green is nicely framed matters not at all in my book.


Consider your example, if someone built any ugly power station in the distance in line with the hole and which dominated the view, and then the club bulldozed the flanking dunes and lovely clubhouse, would the quality of the hole be any less ? If the answer is yes, then what are you actually judging the hole on ? Having a nice view ?


Niall

[Søren Rye]

Consider your example, if someone built any ugly power station in the distance in line with the hole and which dominated the view, and then the club bulldozed the flanking dunes and lovely clubhouse, would the quality of the hole be any less ? If the answer is yes, then what are you actually judging the hole on ? Having a nice view ?


Niall

Why don't you put that in the suggestion box next time you get up there?

[Jason Thurman]

#9 at RCD

- fantastic view from the tee
- tee shot hangs in the middle of the sky with the Mourne Mountains as a backdrop and then falls out of sight
- the walk down the hill to the fairway spotting your ball
- great approach shot framed by dunes with the clubhouse behind

None of those reasons relates to architecture unless you consider the original architect designed the hole for the aesthetics, which I don't know but suspect not.


Niall

So you don't consider position of tee, blind vs non-blind shots, use of landscape to frame and protect the green architectural elements? Ok ...

+1


Lots of holes have nice architecture on the ground. There are a few holes I've played where the backdrop is uniquely satisfying to watch a ball sail against. When you combine the two, good holes become great. The 2nd at Black Creek has always been my go-to example - the mountain behind the green makes a well-struck shot easier to track and more satisfying to watch as it flies toward the hole. It's hard to quantify, but the right backdrop can make a shot feel much bigger and more dramatic.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'll throw in a sleeper—Nine at Royal North Devon. It is a reachable par five where five is not a bad score. There is a bunker fronting the smallish green that falls away from the player. I have played it more than a dozen times and still walk away upset that I didn't birdie it.

[Josh Tarble]

I'll throw this one out:


Kiawah Ocean #10 - it isn't as option filled as many others, but it does ask you to challenge the big bunker on the right to have the best line in, and it's in a spectacular setting.  You can make the case for a ton of different holes, but I think this one is at least in that category.

[Zack Molnar]

6 at Seminole has to be in the running for my top hole


The tee shot encourages you to hit a draw to help keep the tee shot up on the left side of the right-to-left sloping fairway, but there is room right if you are not able to do so. However, if you put it out to the right, the green is now at a much more awkward angle than if you came in from the left. The golfer must now hit a cut to hold the green that is now much more shallow than if you approached from the left.


Additionally, the hole is in that sweet spot yardage (~370) where you really consider how far up you want to hit it. The fairway bends to the right off the tee, and then comes back to the left, with some cross bunkers starting about 75 yards short of the tee and continuing up to the green. These bunkers are both a thought inducing hazard on the tee and second shot, as well as playing visual tricks as they make you seem closer to the green than you are, making you unsure of your next shot.


Finally, as Steve Salmen mentioned, it has the downhill tee shot followed by the uphill second shot to give variety of land forms for the golfer to enjoy and engage with

[Zack Molnar]

I'll throw this one out:


Kiawah Ocean #10 - it isn't as option filled as many others, but it does ask you to challenge the big bunker on the right to have the best line in, and it's in a spectacular setting.  You can make the case for a ton of different holes, but I think this one is at least in that category.

10 is certainly a very good hole. My problem with 10 is that it is very similar to some of the other holes on the property in the shots that is calls for, so its not terrible unique. Most of the holes out there require you to take a strong angle over a bunker to get the best line into a hole. I personally think 3 is the best hole on the course, with 4 also being a strong contender in my mind, partly because they are different from most of the other holes out there

[Niall C]

Consider your example, if someone built any ugly power station in the distance in line with the hole and which dominated the view, and then the club bulldozed the flanking dunes and lovely clubhouse, would the quality of the hole be any less ? If the answer is yes, then what are you actually judging the hole on ? Having a nice view ?


Niall

Why don't you put that in the suggestion box next time you get up there?

Soren


No problem, I get it, you're a belt notcher who wants to show off where you've been. However if you do want to talk about architecture let me know and I'd be happy to join in.


All the best


Niall

[Sean Leary]

9 at RCD actually disappointed, although I only played it twice. The view from the top of the hill is unreal, but I found myself a little underwhelmed on what was on the ground.


I will throw out 6 at Prairie Dunes as my pick. 8 is better known, but I prefer 6 as an ideal hole. At under 400 yards its playable for all. WIDE landing area. Beautiful visual off tee. You can hit whatever you want off on your drive (including driver for good players if they want).  Slight dogleg left, the nearer you hit it to or by the bunker on the left brings you closer on your, but leaves you not being able to see the green. Father right leaves you better visibility. Green has false front front left that is very easy to spin off to a front pin. Left and right has short grass chipping area that you putt chip or flop from.  Farther back are bunkers that can come into play. Brilliant Maxwell green.  Constant wind that affects both shots. It has it all.

[Joe Hellrung]

I'm not sure I'm even qualified to have an opinion given my comparatively limited exposure to the great courses of the world, but of the courses I've walked or played, my nomination is #2 at Augusta National.  So much depends on the drive here.  If you hug the left side you might kick down the hill and set up nicely to go in two, but if you are too greedy then you can get stuck in the trees.    The trap and slope on the right side of the FW allows you to play it safe but keeps you from going for it in 2.  If you do put your drive in the trees to the left, it features some of the most beautiful flowers on the course.  The green is world class, and leaves you at a fantastic spot in the course that allows you to see a lot of the holes to come and the clubhouse. 

[Jason Topp]

I am enjoying the responses.  As I think about the issue, to my mind, the best hole in the world should have the following characteristics:
1. Present interesting questions of tactics and execution for all levels of player to solve. 
2.  Be beautiful

I do not think the best hole in the world can be a par three.  While par threes are terrific for variety in the course of a round, they are limited by length in the problems they present. 

Generally, I do not think the best hole in the world can have a forced carry although a stream might be ok.  I am thinking the best hole in the world could theoretically be played with a putter.  This approach would leave 13 at Augusta National out which is the first hole I thought of on this topic.

Maintenance of the hole needs to allow the options for playing that hole to remain viable.  Because rough has grown into the left of the principles nose and created a noose on the road hole, I think those holes are out. 

The contenders I am thinking about right now are 4 at Royal Melbourne West, the 14th at Royal Dornoch, and the 15th at Kingsley Club.  I am sure I am missing many strong contenders.
 

[Kalen Braley]

While I think this is a terrific exercise, I'm left trying to figure out how we can actually determine a winner on this....cause by golly we just got to right! 

Should we have a 1st vote to narrow it down to 10 holes, and then a 2nd vote to pick a winner from those?

[Thomas Dai]

The 1st at TOC.


Why? The history, the anticipation and longing, the tee directly in front of the Clubhouse, the banter, the photographs, the Starters Hut, the folks wondering around gawking, the other players/caddies waiting to tee-off, the knee-knocking hand-twitching nervousness, the OB on both sides, Granny Clark's Wynd, the snaking, surprisingly wide Swilcan Burn, the flattish green. Wonderful and simply unforgettable 😊😊😊


Atb

[Steve Salmen]

Jason, I'm inclined to agree with the putter theory. 13 at Shinnecock is does not quite fit this criteria, unless you tee one up and carry the putter 60 odd yards.

[Benjamin Litman]

Thomas stole half of my answer. The other half is the 1st's better half--the 18th at the Old Course. It obviously shares many of the characteristics Thomas sets forth with respect to the 1st, but, to me, it's both strategically and aesthetically a much better hole. Strategically, its length and typically downwind orientation offer many more options from tee, while the Valley of Sin and out of bounds wreak havoc with what should be a straightforward wedge or short-iron approach. Aesthetically, the view toward town and the clubhouse is perhaps the best in all of golf. Together, the design and the view distill the game to its essence.

[Søren Rye]

Soren


No problem, I get it, you're a belt notcher who wants to show off where you've been. However if you do want to talk about architecture let me know and I'd be happy to join in.


All the best


Niall

Niall,

No problem. You're presumeably a knowledgeable guy, who just got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. My post (which in nature does not distinguish itself from a lot of others on this thread) must for some reason have disturbed you a little more up there on the high horse. Hope the rest of your day was better.

Kind regards,

Søren

[Matt Kardash]

This might be my least favourite thread of all time. I have no idea how anyone can answer this question. Who has seen enough holes? And even if you have, now can anyone pick a Best hole? It seems like a pointless question to me.

[Joe Hellrung]

This might be my least favourite thread of all time. I have no idea how anyone can answer this question. Who has seen enough holes? And even if you have, now can anyone pick a Best hole? It seems like a pointless question to me.

I'm not sure the point of a "discussion group" if you can't express your own opinion and enjoy the opinion of others. 


Have a beer, it doesn't cost anything....

[Pete Lavallee]

I'm a bit surprised that no one has nominated the world's greatest architect's favorite hole, #16 at Pasatiempo! The hole appears to be perfectly draped upon the land on which it sits; did The Good Dr. do any grading in the landing area? That pimple you aim you sim for is really unique, it can accommodate both a draw or a fade but each must be precisely landed to stay in the fairway. Is there a more exciting second shot in golf, OK maybe #8 at Pebble Beach, but the tee shot there is a simple laid  up 3 wood. I can't think of a more exciting green in golf as all putts are challenging but makeable for someone with sufficient imagination. Im also sure you could putt over the creek if need be!

[Bill_McBride]

The 1st at TOC.


Why? The history, the anticipation and longing, the tee directly in front of the Clubhouse, the banter, the photographs, the Starters Hut, the folks wondering around gawking, the other players/caddies waiting to tee-off, the knee-knocking hand-twitching nervousness, the OB on both sides, Granny Clark's Wynd, the snaking, surprisingly wide Swilcan Burn, the flattish green. Wonderful and simply unforgettable 😊😊😊


Atb

Thomas, #1 may not be the best hole in the world, but the first tee has to be the best anywhere.   All those eyes on you and the difficulty of taking a deep breath to stay calm!