[Tim Gavrich]

Are there holes/courses - or, more generally, architectural characteristics - that favor either a player receiving shots or a player giving them in a match, all things being equal?


I recently played the Creek Club at Reynolds Lake Oconee and came away wondering how its mostly very generous gathering slopes would affect a bunch of matches where one player was giving another a bunch of shots. I'm trying to envision how a match would go between me and my dad, whom I give 5 a side whenever we play. I want to say he'd have the upper hand at a place like the Creek Club, where he'd hit a bunch of shots that would normally end up 40+ feet away from the hole, but would be 15 feet or closer in at the Creek.


At Pawleys Plantation, up in SC, however, I find that the relentless difficulty of the course - tight off the tee, smallish greens, deep bunkers, lots of hazards...Nicklaus at his 1980s nastiest - historically favors the giver, because disastrous scores tend to pile up fast and morale tends to drop a little faster for a higher-handicap player who is not hitting it well. But for any handicap, it's definitely a course where one's handicap "travels well," because an 83 there is like a 78 or 79 at other places.


Of course, the sequencing of holes is another big factor. At Caledonia, a not-crazy-hard course where I would think I'd normally have an advantage, I have a bad record against my dad because he gets all five of his back-nine strokes in a row on holes 12 through 16.


Any courses jump out to members of the Treehouse as ones where the giver has an advantage over the getter, or vice versa?

[Kyle Harris]

Interesting topic.

I tend to believe that this falls on whatever method is used to allocate the various handicap strokes to each hole. The USGA method is rather inadequate as it starts with the idea that the first stroke should be allocated to the hole where the 1 Handicap needs a shot over the Scratch Golfer.

........what?

I tend to look at how the 10 handicap will play against the scratch, then at how the 20 handicap will play against the 10 handicap, and lastly how the 20 handicap will play against the scratch on the golf course in question. Generally a scratch golfer is going to make no greater than 5 on any given hole. Generally a 20 handicap golfer will make at least 5 on the toughest holes.

Please bear in mind that I take no consideration of par, and only factor in distance commensurate with the relative difficulty to overcome said distance. A 550 yard hole with no forced carries and few bunkers may play more equitably in regards to the match than 140 yard hole where trouble abounds. In this case, it would be reasonable to have the shorter hole higher up in the pecking order of stroke distribution.

[Matthew Petersen]

Yeah, it seems like something not only highly specific to courses but just to the competitors. Is the "giver" a 10 giving strokes to a 20 or a scratch giving shots to someone? Is the player getting strokes a higher handicap player because they're a terrible putter, or a mediocre player all around, or because they have a handful of holes in every round where they "blow up"?


I have one particular buddy who I play a lot of matches with, I usually give him 6 a side. He's the latter kind of this options--he can make a bunch of pars and boys, but he'll also put up some Xs, pretty much every round. I think a relentlessly difficult course as you describe is probably better for me (the giver of strokes) not so much because he'll get demoralized (he's a guy who's used to putting up big numbers), but simply because a highly penal course means he has the potential to make an X at every hole.


But there's another guy I've had some matches with who's one of these older gents who hits every damn shot down the middle, but (fortunately for me) has demons in his short game. I'm still the giver, but against him I'd probably rather play a "gathering" course, because that feature is more likely to keep a couple of my wild shot in play and keep me in the hole where I might be able to win it around the green.

[Dave August]

As the higher cap player, I would try to get strokes (if neither golfer is scratch) on the holes where the difference between the two cap's comes into play. So, if I am a 15 and my partner is a 12, I don't want him to give strokes on the #1-3 cap holes, rather on the 13-15 hcp holes.


However, if I am the lower cap player, I want to give the strokes on the hardest holes, which I would imagine happens more often.


I never thought about different course architecture coming into play. More to ponder when playing a match, now....

[Mark Pearce]

At Elie, the stroke indexes are set up for matchplay.  The toughest hole on the course is the long par 4 9th.  It is stroke index 10 because a low handicap golfer is likely to make 5, as is the mid-teens handicap golfer.  Stroke index 1 is the previous hole, the 380 yard 8th.  A mid teens handicap might expect a 5, or a 4 if he plays it well, the low single figure golfer expects at least a 4 with a good chance of a 3.  Frequently guests playing the course for the first time ask why these holes have the SI they do, since no-one could possibly mistake 8 for the hardest hole on the course, nor 9 for the 9th easiest.

[Sam Andrews]

Mark,


That is fascinating. How did the club arrive at the indexing?


Sam

[Dave McCollum]

Yes, that’s interesting.  Love Elie.

At our course the allocating of strokes for match play is that the low capper plays at scratch and the higher caps get .66 or .75, whichever is easier to calculate, of the difference.  It works remarkably well, much better than giving full handicap.  I play in a group where the caps range from 4 to 25.  The money moves around evenly.  For example, the 4 gets no shots, the 25 gets 14 as the difference is 21.  Maybe I should add that full handicap doesn’t work in match play with the US system setup for stroke play.  Also, as illustrated above, it avoids the dreaded 2 shots given on one hole.  Even the 25 cap can make pars and bogies.

[Mark Pearce]

Sam,


I don't know, I'll ask when I'm next up but I suspect the detail will be lost in the mist of time.  It helps, of course, that this  is a club that sees lots of match play and (relatively) few stroke play competitions.


Mark

[jeffwarne]

As the higher cap player, I would try to get strokes (if neither golfer is scratch) on the holes where the difference between the two cap's comes into play. So, if I am a 15 and my partner is a 12, I don't want him to give strokes on the #1-3 cap holes, rather on the 13-15 hcp holes.


However, if I am the lower cap player, I want to give the strokes on the hardest holes, which I would imagine happens more often.


I never thought about different course architecture coming into play. More to ponder when playing a match, now....

For anyone who has "friendly" wagers involving multiple presses, The way a course is handicapped is critical to enjoyment/challenge.
Nothing worse than giving 5 a side and having 4 of the last 5 holes be shot holes on both sides.
Or playing a tight match all day against a 2 handicap and his shot falling on 9 and 18.


IMHO opinion, a 9 handicap should get a shot every other hole-period.(and/or maybe even a 1/2 shot on 9 and 18)
Am always amazed at all the research that goes into handicapping holes to assign a stroke index.
It's WHERE they fall in a match that matters, not simply how hard some expert thinks a hole is-although locally here in The Hamptons, the handicap ranking of #18 often has a lot to do with the current handicap of the club President

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   Goat hill has a club President 

[Josh Tarble]

Giving a stroke is the worst on any par 3 or any par 5.

[Joe Zucker]

In general, I think the harder the course, the more it favors the better player.  If I'm giving shots, I want to play on the toughest course possible because the better player will probably be able to navigate deep bunkers, tight fairways, fast greens, etc..


From an architecture perspective, this could manifest itself qith punishing hazards off the tee or around the greens.  I recently played the ocean course at Kiawah with some mid handicaps and they struggled with the wind and recovery shots. Many times they were around the green in 2 or 3, but still managed to make double or triple because they did not have the touch to navigate the difficulties of "championship" golf courses.  If instead, we are at your generic muni with 18 flat, back and forth holes it's tough to make big numbers.  And if there are few doubles, it's tough to win if you're giving shots.


So I guess my answer is architectural features that make the game hard favor the better player; many of the features we often complain about here.

[Mike_Trenham]

The USGA system of hole handicapping is very flawed.  If you have a 1 playing an 11, your concern should be what holes to have stokes 9 and 10 on not 1.  If a 1 is playing a 3, where is the best place for those 2 shots to come in the round, and it is not 1-3 or 16-18 if you want good fun handicapped matches.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()