Harbour Town 9th hole

[Pete_Pittock]

Long hitters can drive the fronting bunker, which should give them a perfect lie, and a perceived advantage. Should the bunker be replaced with something that would be more random lie of the ball?

[Tim Gallant]

Good point. It defeats the purpose of having a hazard if players are intentionally opting to hit there.

I wonder if they played it as 'through the green' alla Whistling Straights and took away all rakes from that bunker, if that would bring in more of a decision?

[Matt Kardash]

In fairness, I am sure when the hole was designed in 1969 Pete Dye never imagined players being able to hit their drives into the front bunker.

[Tom_Doak]

In fairness, I am sure when the hole was designed in 1969 Pete Dye never imagined players being able to hit their drives into the front bunker.

I will vouch for that.


It doesn't seem like such an easy play, hitting into the bunker from +/- 300 yards away.  But, those guys are good, and I guess it does take the trees in the landing area out of play.

[Matt Bielawa]

The hole is 332 yards, and feels like you're hitting down a bowling alley, with jail on the right, trees on the left, and OB/Driving Range left of that.  If you have the guts to pull driver and can hit it that long and that straight, I'm fine if you get rewarded for it, whether that means you're in an easy bunker, in rough around the green, or on the green itself.

[Nigel Islam]

The hole is 332 yards, and feels like you're hitting down a bowling alley, with jail on the right, trees on the left, and OB/Driving Range left of that.  If you have the guts to pull driver and can hit it that long and that straight, I'm fine if you get rewarded for it, whether that means you're in an easy bunker, in rough around the green, or on the green itself.

Agreed. Especially after the 8th hole which is pretty challenging. I actually think 9 is a very good hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

No.


If you can bust a driver 330 down someone's esophagus, into an armpit of sand, then extricate yourself and make a putt, you deserve a birdie.

[Joe Hancock]

No.


If you can bust a driver 330 down someone's esophagus, into an armpit of sand, then extricate yourself and make a putt, you deserve a birdie.

Anatomy of a golf course.....

[Thomas Dai]

With so much shade does the Harbour Town course have any maintenance difficulties and do the small greens mean pin positioning limitations for general play?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

With so much shade does the Harbour Town course have any maintenance difficulties and do the small greens mean pin positioning limitations for general play?
Atb

Like Pebble Beach, Harbour Town has always suffered condition-wise because its greens are so small and the course gets so much play.  In addition, shade and bermudagrass are not compatible.


They've definitely made some greens bigger than they used to be to try to alleviate the problem.  I think they've done a pretty good job of clearing trees to minimize morning shade on the greens, as well.


Mr. Dye was always a bit sheepish about how much other people loved Harbour Town, knowing that it had these functional problems.  When it was built, no one involved imagined it would become so busy.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Wasn't this a co-design with Nicklaus?


Why is that fact so rarely discussed?

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for these insights Tom.
Atb

[Nigel Islam]

Wasn't this a co-design with Nicklaus?


Why is that fact so rarely discussed?

It was his first gig as a designer, and he himself has said he was more of a player consultant. I think Pete has given Jack a fair amount of credit for helping though. Perhaps each deferring to the other's talent?

[Kalen Braley]

Jonathan,

I'm just an armchair QB...

But when I look at what Pete Dye and Jack have done since Harbour Town...almost everything I see seems to be classic Pete kinda stuff. Smallish greens, small bunkers, waste areas, squared off edges., etc.

[Carl Rogers]

Doesn't this hole and the entire course make the case for trees in GCA? 


When reading down threads, I always bear in mind who did design the course and who did not design the course.  If Rees Jones did this course, would that effect the collective opinion?

[Matt Kardash]

Doesn't this hole and the entire course make the case for trees in GCA? 


When reading down threads, I always bear in mind who did design the course and who did not design the course.  If Rees Jones did this course, would that effect the collective opinion?

The course entered the Top 20 (or was it top 10?) when it was first designed by an almost unknown designer. So I don't think you can make the case that it is considered a great course because of who designed it.

[Carl Rogers]

Doesn't this hole and the entire course make the case for trees in GCA? 


When reading down threads, I always bear in mind who did design the course and who did not design the course.  If Rees Jones did this course, would that effect the collective opinion?

The course entered the Top 20 (or was it top 10?) when it was first designed by an almost unknown designer. So I don't think you can make the case that it is considered a great course because of who designed it.

...but hasn't it done down in the rankings, if you want to pay attention to such things?
I was trying to comment on its enduring qualities that go beyond the minute to minute change in fashion.  To my knowledge, Dye has not done a course anywhere near similar to this course.

............ From the tube, I like the course an awful lot and have made my mind up to go play it this year.

[Anthony_Nysse]

With so much shade does the Harbour Town course have any maintenance difficulties and do the small greens mean pin positioning limitations for general play?
Atb

They regrassed the entire golf course last summer with Celebration Bermudagrass, which is a much, much more shade tolerant grass that what they had previously.
And I must note...cutting trees down on HHI is MUCH more difficult that just greasing the chain bar and gassing the motor. Lots of red tape.

[Nigel Islam]

Doesn't this hole and the entire course make the case for trees in GCA? 


When reading down threads, I always bear in mind who did design the course and who did not design the course.  If Rees Jones did this course, would that effect the collective opinion?

The course entered the Top 20 (or was it top 10?) when it was first designed by an almost unknown designer. So I don't think you can make the case that it is considered a great course because of who designed it.

...but hasn't it done down in the rankings, if you want to pay attention to such things?
I was trying to comment on its enduring qualities that go beyond the minute to minute change in fashion.  To my knowledge, Dye has not done a course anywhere near similar to this course.

............ From the tube, I like the course an awful lot and have made my mind up to go play it this year.

It depends which publication you refer to. HT has certainly dropped on Golf digest's list. It is still on GOLF's World top 100. GOLF might be being a little kind, but to have Blackwolf Run ranked ahead of HT is crazy talk to me.

[Mark Steffey]

And I must note...cutting trees down on HHI is MUCH more difficult that just greasing the chain bar and gassing the motor. Lots of red tape.

good point.  i have cousins with in-laws who had a tree blocking their view of the ocean up in port royal and couldn't get approval to have it removed after a couple years of trying.  they ended up cutting it down in the middle of the night and paid the fine.

[Josh Tarble]

Doesn't this hole and the entire course make the case for trees in GCA? 


When reading down threads, I always bear in mind who did design the course and who did not design the course.  If Rees Jones did this course, would that effect the collective opinion?

The course entered the Top 20 (or was it top 10?) when it was first designed by an almost unknown designer. So I don't think you can make the case that it is considered a great course because of who designed it.

...but hasn't it done down in the rankings, if you want to pay attention to such things?
I was trying to comment on its enduring qualities that go beyond the minute to minute change in fashion.  To my knowledge, Dye has not done a course anywhere near similar to this course.

............ From the tube, I like the course an awful lot and have made my mind up to go play it this year.

It depends which publication you refer to. HT has certainly dropped on Golf digest's list. It is still on GOLF's World top 100. GOLF might be being a little kind, but to have Blackwolf Run ranked ahead of HT is crazy talk to me.

I completely agree.  I know you and I have discussed it but I love Harbour Town.  In my opinion it is the one of the most unique golf courses on the planet.  Nothing I know plays even remotely like it.  It's my personal 2nd favorite Dye.  Right behind the Straits and right ahead of Kiawah and TPC Sawgrass.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Why ruin a good hole? They play there one week a year, let them have fun.

Had the pleasure to play this course a few times. Nine is a great hole, why screw it up for 144 golfers? Why are we lost in making it harder for 144 guys once a year?

My club wants to add longer back tees so the 10-15 guys who can murder a ball can air it out. While ignoring the 235 members who cannot stripe a driver 290 and more. Add more bunkers is the battle cry and handicaps have increased over the years.

Can someone explain this to me please. Spend a bunch of cash so 15 guys can talk about how they hit a 485 yard par four with a driver and a nine iron.

Same idea as changing nine. Take a great hole and screw it up trying to make it harder.

[Tim Gallant]

Why ruin a good hole? They play there one week a year, let them have fun.

Had the pleasure to play this course a few times. Nine is a great hole, why screw it up for 144 golfers? Why are we lost in making it harder for 144 guys once a year?

My club wants to add longer back tees so the 10-15 guys who can murder a ball can air it out. While ignoring the 235 members who cannot stripe a driver 290 and more. Add more bunkers is the battle cry and handicaps have increased over the years.

Can someone explain this to me please. Spend a bunch of cash so 15 guys can talk about how they hit a 485 yard par four with a driver and a nine iron.

Same idea as changing nine. Take a great hole and screw it up trying to make it harder.

Why spend money? Take away the rakes in the bunker so that it plays more like a hazard, where they could get good or bad lies? It at least then gives the longer hitters another thought other than 'hit in the bunker, up and down for birdie'.


As soon as a hazard becomes the preferred place to play the ball from, it feels like the hole has lost integrity (for that group of players at least).

[Pete_Pittock]

After ruminating a bit, I'd have to go with Ed's thoughts and leave the hole as is. I'd suspect if it was a problem Fazio would have fixed it last year. And I'm glad the thread got back to the original question.