Pace of Play for scholastic golfers

[Mike Sweeney]

I don't care what age we're talking about, either; clubs where the norm is a sub 4 hour round for a four ball end up with 5 hour rounds in club tournaments.  High school kids get singled out all the time, but I don't see one bit of difference in their pace of play vs others IF the formats are identical.

In 2013 when they issued 53 penalties, the most ever, the pace of play was at its lowest. Honestly, it is not that complicated. Here is the data for AJGA events:


https://www.ajga.org/tourninfo/pace.asp


and the video they use:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErsDhyvc4w8

[Bill Brightly]

I don't want to label you guys as grumpy old men, but I don't think you'll find many situations in which a four ball stroke play competition playing by the Rules completes 9 holes in 2 hours or less.  Typically, the club championship at your club features rounds approaching 5 hours, no?

Having been a high school golf coach, I'm VERY sensitive to the concern, and I can promise you that these kids' coaches are trying their best;

AG, I appreciate you posting here and I'm sensitive to the challenges a high school coach faces. But the average competitive high school player has very little concern for pace of play. They are simply not ready to hit hit when it is their turn. I blame the pros, but when I look across the fairway watch HS players compete on my course, I want to scream! They wait until it is their turn, then go into "full pro mode."  Private clubs hold a great hammer: offer up our private courses for their matches but pace of play rules will be enforced. If the groups don't finish(9 hole matches) in two hours they can't play here for their next match. Back to the County course, IF they can get on. Just watch how quickly those kids get around the course...

[Jon Wiggett]

AG,

standard UK private members club and course with all that entails. No real secret to it apart from all players simply getting on with playing without undue delay.

Jon

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,


I don't understand a lot of what you have written (you cannot pick up in stroke play, for instance)

Ron,


That is simply not true. Stableford is stroke play as defined by 32-1:


__________________________________
. Conditions
Bogey, par and Stableford competitions are forms of stroke play in which play is against a fixed score at each hole.
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-32
______________________________________

I understand that this would be a change in league policy and that is complicated. I had a friend and former basketball teammate leave high school basketball coaching because of the parents with unrealistic expectations. It was not a basketball factory school, just a local high school, and the parents were unrealistic about playing times and college basketball aspirations. So I get it, and you and AG can't say it but I can. Parents are crazy.


However, this thread was started with the concept of a private club trying to find a balance between making contributions to golf and the kids who golf versus allowing bad golf practices to form early in life.

In September of 2015, Boston College cut short the time of its regular season home football game against Howard in a "mercy rule" of sorts:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/bc-howard-agree-shorten-game-due-one-sided-rout-article-1.2358249


Now if an NCAA DI football team (barely last season for BC) can adapt the rules, I am guessing that 9 hole high school golf matches could move to Stableford scoring for the regular season.

Combined with Nate's observations above, which seem at least in part to be social issues, and combined in part with the AJGA rules for slow play, I am guessing there is room for improvement.

[A.G._Crockett]

Guys, I know all about all the ways to speed up golf.  I routinely walk 18 holes in 3.5 or less without hurrying, and I'm very, very disappointed if a four ball with my buddies (old guys, every one) takes more than 4 hours.  And god knows I've seen HS kids wander around and waste time on a golf course.  I know the AJGA pace of play system, I know what clubs like Rivermont in Atlanta do with great success, and on and on and on.

But I'd urge you to try not to compare apples to oranges.  IF you play STRICTLY by the Rules from the time the first ball is struck on #1 to the time the last player holes out on either #9 or #18, four ball stroke play is just absolutely the slowest way to play golf that there is.  No picking up after a double.  No ready golf.  No gimmes.  No playing the entire course like it's a lateral hazard if you unexpectedly can't find your ball.  Throw in to that equation the team aspect, in which each player knows that the difference between making a bogey vs double could really, really matter and that his or her teammates are depending on them, and you have the recipe for slow golf.

Believe me, HS golf coaches KNOW that they are dependent on the charity of the course, and believe me EVERY HS golf coach does everything that you can do to hurry things along as best they can.  The coaches know that the membership has a predisposition to not want HS kids on their course in the first place.

But those of you that think that there is a reasonable way to play a four ball team match UNDER THE RULES and with at least half the players not knowing the course in under 2 hours per 9 holes are living in a dream world.  It doesn't happen in your club championship; hell, it doesn't even happen on Saturday morning most weekends with people that play the course every week raking putts and playing "the leaf rule" and picking up after double, etc!  So maybe quit demonizing HS kids (and by extension, their coaches?) and understand what's really going on.

Besides that, the HS is EXTREMELY brief, especially in the spring, and ONLY after school gets out late in the afternoon until dark.  You guys are talking about this like it's an everyday, year-round occurrence; trust me, most days that the HS kids are out there, nobody in their right mind is out in that weather anyway.  The whole thing is over by the first week of May.

I am, btw, long since retired from teaching and coaching; I am, and have always been, a club member at courses that host HS events.  I'll say it again; on those days, I either stay away from the course, or play the back nine, or just practice.  I don't see it as any different than the course hosting a scramble or some other outing.  I try to find something more important to bitch about, for the most part.

[A.G._Crockett]

4ball strokeplay should be pretty fast as the forms of 4bbb, foresomes and greensomes lend themselves to speedy progress. Individual strokeplay should be in 2 or 3 balls. 9 holes should be easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours.

Jon

Jon,
I agree with you that, when possible, a three ball match is preferable to a four ball; the pace of play gains are often much more than 25%.

That said, there is NO way that a high school golf match is going to be "easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours."  Those are numbers that are possible if players pick up after double bogey, etc, not times that you see if players putt and play under the Rules.

I hate to be negative about this, but competitive stroke play at ANY age is just SLOW.  Applying times that work for a casual round just isn't realistic.  2 hours, hopefully.  Less than that?  I can't see it.

AG,

where I did my apprenticeship the big strokeplay competitions of the year would usually have about 230 entrants all of who played on the same day with the last group taking typically 3.5 to 3.75 hours for 18 holes. I do not recall it ever going over 4 hours. Strokeplay need not, indeed should not be a slow format.

Jon

Jon,
That's great; I'd be curious to know details; ages of the players, average handicaps, familiarity with the course among the players, distance from greens to the next tee, how many holes had OB or water hazards, and so on.  It is very possible that the commonalities are less than you believe.

In my experience, stroke play IF players are putting out and not picking up at double or triple max and otherwise playing by the Rules is just slow golf.  I don't care what age we're talking about, either; clubs where the norm is a sub 4 hour round for a four ball end up with 5 hour rounds in club tournaments.  High school kids get singled out all the time, but I don't see one bit of difference in their pace of play vs others IF the formats are identical.

In other words, "everybody else is slow, so it's OK"?

Yeah, Dave, that's exactly what I said.  Always great to hear from you.

[MCirba]

Corey,

Professional, televised golf ultimately does a disservice to the actual game of golf as witnessed by the ponderous, laborious 5.5 hour rounds exhibited at the Masters this weekend.  The truth is that 98% of people would also score much better if they vexed less and instead acted more instinctively to what the course and conditions presented on any given day.

On the same day that Jordan self-destructed on 12, I slipped out to a local nine hole course of about 3200 yards in chilly, brisk weather.   Playing through a twosome in a cart at one point, I carried my bag, walking 5.5 miles in 2.5 hours and finished 3 over par for eighteen holes, twice around the joint.   It was refreshing exercise and enjoyable golf.

There is NO WAY to enjoy a round of golf that takes longer than 4 hours.   

I say this not to brag in any way but simply to point out that we've taken a relatively simple game and turned it into a time-consuming nightmare of complexity and expense in the US.   Oddly, many of the European players also play the dirge-like, Bataan Death March and I'm not sure where they learned it but it's certainly contagious.    When I played in England and Scotland this past October the longest round walking was 3 hours and in my mind's eye, I picture those self-absorbed pros getting asked to leave if they were to hold up the entire course with their stultifying shenanigans that bring sloth and slumber to the rest of us.

[A.G._Crockett]

Corey,

Professional, televised golf ultimately does a disservice to the actual game of golf as witnessed by the ponderous, laborious 5.5 hour rounds exhibited at the Masters this weekend.  The truth is that 98% of people would also score much better if they vexed less and instead acted more instinctively to what the course and conditions presented on any given day.

On the same day that Jordan self-destructed on 12, I slipped out to a local nine hole course of about 3200 yards in chilly, brisk weather.   Playing through a twosome in a cart at one point, I carried my bag, walking 5.5 miles in 2.5 hours and finished 3 over par for eighteen holes, twice around the joint.   It was refreshing exercise and enjoyable golf.

There is NO WAY to enjoy a round of golf that takes longer than 4 hours.   

I say this not to brag in any way but simply to point out that we've taken a relatively simple game and turned it into a time-consuming nightmare of complexity and expense in the US.   Oddly, many of the European players also play the dirge-like, Bataan Death March and I'm not sure where they learned it but it's certainly contagious.    When I played in England and Scotland this past October the longest round walking was 3 hours and in my mind's eye, I picture those self-absorbed pros getting asked to leave if they were to hold up the entire course with their stultifying shenanigans that bring sloth and slumber to the rest of us.

Mike,
You play golf like I do; quickly.  I, too, have walked many, many solo 18 hole rounds in under 3 hours, though I find the ability to hit that pace to be VERY course-dependent.

So let's put you (and others) at one end of the spectrum; under 3 hours on a local course of 6400 yds, with what I'll guess to be relatively straightforward greens, playing solo and with nothing on the line, and possibly even some "flexibility" in the Rules.  (And I know you don't think a four ball in a club championship would be played at anywhere near that pace, of course.)

On the other end of the spectrum, let's put The Masters; a course of over 7000 yds., with the most complex greens on the planet, 20 mph winds, and fame and fortune on the line, resulting in a 5.5 hour round, though Sunday was at least marginally quicker than that.

If 4 high school kids, given that at least two probably don't know the course, etc,  could come out somewhere in between those two, at around 4.5, that seems pretty decent to me.  I know it'll never satisfy many of the folks on here from the UK, much less some of the chronically crabby-ass old men here,  but it strikes me as a decent pace.

[Jon Wiggett]

AG,

it is very easy to play completely by the rules in strokeplay and be round in under 3.5 hours. Just because you have never seen it does not make it impossible. I understand where you are coming from but your apathy to the situation is more a part of the problem you are seeing and certainly you should not expect to be able to find a solution as long as you have it. 3.5 hours is a respectable time but it is certainly not fast.

To solve it you need to put in place fairly standard and well know guidelines about pace of play and then enforce them rigorously. Yes, you might be a little unpopular with some but it is amazing how quickly players themselves adopt the guidelines and happily enforce them themselves.

Jon

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,

it is very easy to play completely by the rules in strokeplay and be round in under 3.5 hours. Just because you have never seen it does not make it impossible. I understand where you are coming from but your apathy to the situation is more a part of the problem you are seeing and certainly you should not expect to be able to find a solution as long as you have it. 3.5 hours is a respectable time but it is certainly not fast.

To solve it you need to put in place fairly standard and well know guidelines about pace of play and then enforce them rigorously. Yes, you might be a little unpopular with some but it is amazing how quickly players themselves adopt the guidelines and happily enforce them themselves.

Jon

Jon,
With all due respect, you don't know me at all, so lecturing me about apathy and all the rest is more than tiresome.

I am not now, nor have I ever been apathetic about pace of play.  When I was a HS golf coach, which I am NOT any more and have not been since 2005, I was on my players' asses about pace of play on a daily basis.  EVERY day!  Having never been there to hear me, you'll just have to take my word for that.  You also have absolutely NO way of knowing how fast I play as an individual, but I dare say that if you and I were to be so fortunate as to play golf together, you would NOT find yourself waiting on me, and on an uncrowded golf course of ANY yardage and difficulty if we weren't having a beer in less than 3.5 after we teed off, it would be your fault, not mine.

If you routinely see four ball competitions played under the Rules in under 3.5 hours, then good on you.  I do NOT see it at the club level in tournament play, regardless of the age of the players involved, and I don't think it is reasonable to expect HS kids who do NOT necessarily know the golf course well, to manage that.  You are, of course, entitled to think otherwise.  But take it easy on the lectures about apathy and all of that.

[corey miller]

How well does one have to "know the golf course" in order to get around in a reasonable manner?  If it is that important perhaps we take High School sports a little too seriously.  I do know that we take club tournaments and betting games a little too seriously.


Perhaps the reason private club rounds have slowed is because of the fact that fewer and fewer members learned the game as "legacy golfers".  They learned in High School programs, public courses, and watching the PGA.  How would they even know better? 


I don't think anyone has chimed in here (even the crabby old guys) wanting to limit access.  Should the kids really learn the game as if it is a five hour slog?  If that is Okay what other "rules" would it be rude to enforce? Cell phones? Dress? care for the course?

[MCirba]

Corey,

I'm hoping I'm one of the crabby old guys.   I played high school golf and never recall a nine-hole round on any course taking more than 2 hours.   

I think that's a big part of what should be taught to these kids and having a club rule as part of providing those schools with access seems very reasonable to me.

[Mike Sweeney]

Perhaps the reason private club rounds have slowed is because of the fact that fewer and fewer members learned the game as "legacy golfers". 

To be fair, my son is a now 20 year old casual golfer. Basically we play "vacation golf". He sees me walking and carrying my bag, but I know when he plays with his squash buddies during the summer, he is riding carts, taking too long..... He is in crazy great shape, but he just does not look at golf as a "fitness sport".


At the end of the day, golf in the USA missed a huge opportunity in the fitness craze. I now log 1200-1800 calories burned when I log a round of golf. People look at me like I am crazy when I talk about this. Oh yea, I have lost 26 pounds in the last 4 months and part of that has been from golf and hiking. Walk faster, the calories burned increases.


Golf architecture and calorie burn while playing golf, now that is a niche market.

[MCirba]

Mike Sweeney,

Great to hear and I completely agree.  Also seems the fitter I get the better I play.  Isn't scholastic golf part of physical education?

[Ronald Montesano]

Walk a mile in my shoes.


You guys are hysterical at times (I'm sure you feel the same about me)


"I never remember a high school round taking more than two hours."


I'm certain that you clocked every high school round of golf back then. I'm certain that you catalogued each of them in your memory bank so that you could recall them at the appropriate time in 2016.


Crockett, I'll be your Tubbs. We're up against it here and we're not going to win. At least we look good in our 1980s Miami chic, no socks, of course. Put on your shades and let's go down with guns a-blazing.


To everyone else who hasn't coached high school golf, you are correct and we are not. How could we have waited so long to consult you?


#Inconceivable
#IDon'tThinkThatWordMeansWhatYouThinkItDoes

[MCirba]

By the time we took the school bus to our course out in the sticks, if a round took more than two hours we'd have been playing in the dark. 

Funny story.   One of our kids was a hothead (still is to this day, actually) and he was playing in the last group as 5th or 6th man.   It was already dusk and the lights inside the smallish trailer of a clubhouse were already on.   The 18th green was across a country road and electric and phone poles were behind the green.

Well, anyway, our kid missed a short putt and with both teams lined up as gallery behind the 18th green he turned and flung his putter as far as he could.   It hit the electric box high atop the pole, sparked for a second or two, and then the clubhouse went completely DARK.

Perhaps if he had finished a little sooner...   

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's not forget that Ron also told his yearbook staff to give up on taking great pics and just take hundreds of pictures. It's just how kids are taught now, suck - repeat, suck - repeat, suck - repeat. You only need one to be a winner. As an employer my profits are not boosted by hiring a bunch of blind squirrels. Thanks teach.

[Mike Sweeney]

To everyone else who hasn't coached high school golf, you are correct and we are not. How could we have waited so long to consult you?

I had a similar view about my weight until last July 1, 2015. "Hey I am getting old" "I can't push my back running 10K's anymore" "My metabolism is not what it used to be" "Honey, I only had two glasses of wine"..... It was all bullcrap stuck in my head.


On July 1, 2015, I met a Marine that was the most motivational coach that I have ever seen. I saw him mold 1097 students (Plebes) into one machine last summer at the United States Naval Academy. I played college basketball for Gary Williams (NCAA Championship at Maryland), Dr Tom Davis (BC, Stanford, Iowa), and others along the way. Jeez, Bruce Pearl (Auburn) was our Manager when I played.


None of them could touch "Major A". He totally inspired me to get back in shape. Yet, I could not get the weight off. I finally found the right calorie counting app that clicked for me. I watched, listened, and reacted to the data. I lost 27 pounds and have been stable at that weight for 2 months.


As Mike Cirba mentioned above, I now want to play golf better again. My goal is to get back to a REAL single digit player and walk every round. I am 53 years old and I am starting my third or fourth life in golf.


It is disappointing when two educators and coaches are closed minded about input from external sources. In a million years, I would have never thought a retired Marine could influence me in such a deep way. I never had any direct contact with him other than a few exchanges after I would watch him work his magic.


I will continue to try and make the game of golf better in my little corner of the universe. I really do love the sport, and it has given me and my family many experiences that can't be replicated by other sports.


I left this Board because I thought I could no longer contribute to GCA.com other than money. My outlook was changed by listening to others not related to golf.


Fairways and greens.

[A.G._Crockett]

To everyone else who hasn't coached high school golf, you are correct and we are not. How could we have waited so long to consult you?

I had a similar view about my weight until last July 1, 2015. "Hey I am getting old" "I can't push my back running 10K's anymore" "My metabolism is not what it used to be" "Honey, I only had two glasses of wine"..... It was all bullcrap stuck in my head.


On July 1, 2015, I met a Marine that was the most motivational coach that I have ever seen. I saw him mold 1097 students (Plebes) into one machine last summer at the United States Naval Academy. I played college basketball for Gary Williams (NCAA Championship at Maryland), Dr Tom Davis (BC, Stanford, Iowa), and others along the way. Jeez, Bruce Pearl (Auburn) was our Manager when I played.


None of them could touch "Major A". He totally inspired me to get back in shape. Yet, I could not get the weight off. I finally found the right calorie counting app that clicked for me. I watched, listened, and reacted to the data. I lost 27 pounds and have been stable at that weight for 2 months.


As Mike Cirba mentioned above, I now want to play golf better again. My goal is to get back to a REAL single digit player and walk every round. I am 53 years old and I am starting my third or fourth life in golf.


It is disappointing when two educators and coaches are closed minded about input from external sources. In a million years, I would have never thought a retired Marine could influence me in such a deep way. I never had any direct contact with him other than a few exchanges after I would watch him work his magic.


I will continue to try and make the game of golf better in my little corner of the universe. I really do love the sport, and it has given me and my family many experiences that can't be replicated by other sports.


I left this Board because I thought I could no longer contribute to GCA.com other than money. My outlook was changed by listening to others not related to golf.


Fairways and greens.

I do love being called "closed minded"; kind of makes my day, really.  Thanks, Mike! 

And once more, for the record;  I WAS an educator and a coach; I'm now retired.  If anyone chooses to see me a "close minded" for my views, I can't do a thing about that.  But I'll say it again; you guys are holding HS kids to a standard that YOU didn't meet in HS (except, perhaps, in your glorified memory?) and that no club that I'm familiar with meets in four ball competitions played under the Rules.

But that's ok; you guys can rage on all you want; education and all that goes with it is ALWAYS a slow-moving target when there's nothing else to bitch about.  But even if you can't remember your own HS golf accurately remember two things:

1. There is a reason this thread doesn't show up until April; for most the HS golf season nobody else is out in the crappy weather and minimal daylight hours available to HS kids for their short season.

2. If you can just endure the horror of having kids on YOUR golf course for one or two late afternoons a week for a couple of more weeks, the whole thing will be over for another year; it is the shortest of all HS sports seasons and typically ends by the first of May.  Then you can move back to bitching about women and whatever other groups are your targets for the other 11 months of the year.

[Mike Sweeney]

1. There is a reason this thread doesn't show up until April; for most the HS golf season nobody else is out in the crappy weather and minimal daylight hours available to HS kids for their short season.

2. If you can just endure the horror of having kids on YOUR golf course for one or two late afternoons a week for a couple of more weeks, the whole thing will be over for another year; it is the shortest of all HS sports seasons and typically ends by the first of May.  Then you can move back to bitching about women and whatever other groups are your targets for the other 11 months of the year.

AG,


I don't view you and Ron as "closed minded". I would say update to say "intellectually lazy". This is a discussion group, let's discuss.


In reference to point #1 above, I was the 5th or 6th golfer of the year out on Yale Golf Course this season. There were NO high school golfers out in front of me. Specifically at Yale, that means golfers from the Hopkins School, which uses Yale as its home course. I love playing with those kids, and I give them tons of crap. Yes, I do it in a constructive way (I think) that only a parent can and an educator cannot. In the Karma of life my older son's Navy Squash team played their last match of the year at the Hopkins School. They lost in the main bracket and were bumped from Yale to Hopkins. Navy won, so hopefully my treating those kids in a fun way helped Navy.


In reference to # 2 above, I received some text from two friends who are fathers of high school golfers in New York and Philly who are reading this. They are not GCA members, but their sons play the fancy clubs of Philly and Westchester:

• Lurked and saw the scholastic golf thread today.  That be SON"S NAME CHANGED playing last week at Sleepy and twice this week at FANCY CLUB 2, oh and a match at FANCY CLUB #3 last week too.  The matches are painfully slow.  At least 2.5 hours.  He (texter's son) says it takes forever for some kids to swing.
• Btw, you missed Amherst in the NESCAC!  Most important institution there!   
• I go to pick him up sometimes and wait forever for the matches to end.  It is painfully slow walking speeds and painfully long putting pre shot routines.  That's what I see.
• Tell Corey that high schools students and teams do take it seriously.  Remember that every school has a newspaper and their results are reported to the only world they care about-their peers and friends.  They want to win because in their world this does matter!
• Ha!  When I first saw the thread title I thought it would be about how much time all you gca geeks should be given to stand around looking at the features!

Mike Sweeney responded in a text that I was on a job site to the one Dad and would post tonight. When I got home, I saw this:

• Today is a perfect example.  4:15 tee off, just finished at 7:08.  Insane.

[Mike Sweeney]

Update from one of the sons who is now following, He got into a fancy college in The South so names are hidden and can only be found on the NSA database


"He said every kid lines up their putts like it is the us open.  Walk around it from all 4 sides.  They all are forced to play at the pace of the slowest group that goes off first.  They walk slowly.  They don't hit provisionals so they walk back to the tees slowly when they lose a ball.  Kid he played today took an 11 on one hole.  Since it is stroke play as a team they can't pick up."

I am sorry, but this is either "Intellectual Laziness" or if I am being nice "Too Much Politeness". The Pro does not want to offend The Member who has a son on the golf team. The Coach, who is really a teacher on a golf course, does not want to offend The Kid who has The Parent who pays big $$ and thinks Johnny and Jane will get into a fancy school on a golf scholarship.

Play a Stableford format for 9 holes in two hours or go to the local Muni. Just for the record, there are probably 5 or 6 people on this website that have played Cobbs Creek AND Walnut Lane, and I am one of them !! Somehow, I seem to find my way onto fancy golf clubs where they play US Opens and Walker Cups by learning how to play the right way!

Ladies and Gentleman - The destruction of golf is our destiny!

[A.G._Crockett]

1. There is a reason this thread doesn't show up until April; for most the HS golf season nobody else is out in the crappy weather and minimal daylight hours available to HS kids for their short season.

2. If you can just endure the horror of having kids on YOUR golf course for one or two late afternoons a week for a couple of more weeks, the whole thing will be over for another year; it is the shortest of all HS sports seasons and typically ends by the first of May.  Then you can move back to bitching about women and whatever other groups are your targets for the other 11 months of the year.

AG,


I don't view you and Ron as "closed minded". I would say update to say "intellectually lazy". This is a discussion group, let's discuss.


In reference to point #1 above, I was the 5th or 6th golfer of the year out on Yale Golf Course this season. There were NO high school golfers out in front of me. Specifically at Yale, that means golfers from the Hopkins School, which uses Yale as its home course. I love playing with those kids, and I give them tons of crap. Yes, I do it in a constructive way (I think) that only a parent can and an educator cannot. In the Karma of life my older son's Navy Squash team played their last match of the year at the Hopkins School. They lost in the main bracket and were bumped from Yale to Hopkins. Navy won, so hopefully my treating those kids in a fun way helped Navy.


In reference to # 2 above, I received some text from two friends who are fathers of high school golfers in New York and Philly who are reading this. They are not GCA members, but their sons play the fancy clubs of Philly and Westchester:

• Lurked and saw the scholastic golf thread today.  That be SON"S NAME CHANGED playing last week at Sleepy and twice this week at FANCY CLUB 2, oh and a match at FANCY CLUB #3 last week too.  The matches are painfully slow.  At least 2.5 hours.  He (texter's son) says it takes forever for some kids to swing.
• Btw, you missed Amherst in the NESCAC!  Most important institution there!   
• I go to pick him up sometimes and wait forever for the matches to end.  It is painfully slow walking speeds and painfully long putting pre shot routines.  That's what I see.
• Tell Corey that high schools students and teams do take it seriously.  Remember that every school has a newspaper and their results are reported to the only world they care about-their peers and friends.  They want to win because in their world this does matter!
• Ha!  When I first saw the thread title I thought it would be about how much time all you gca geeks should be given to stand around looking at the features!

Mike Sweeney responded in a text that I was on a job site to the one Dad and would post tonight. When I got home, I saw this:

• Today is a perfect example.  4:15 tee off, just finished at 7:08.  Insane.

Mike,
I'm sure you're a great guy, even though you seem to think calling someone you've never met and know nothing about "intellectually lazy" is some sort of an improvement over "close minded".  It isn't an improvement; it's damn insulting, even coming from somebody I've never met.  I've got a ton of real-world, empirical data on this; I'll gamble and say that I have more than you, and maybe by a lot.  Given that, you might ease off on the insults and condescension just a touch, okay?

Let me ask you something, and I'll have to assume that your reply is honest.  At your club (or clubs of which you have been a member in the past) what is the average time of a four ball stroke play round under the Rules in a club tournament?  Not on an average Saturday morning in the points game where people pick up after double, etc., much less a casual round as a single or a twosome after work on a weekday.  I'm talking about THE club championship or something of the sort, played FULLY under the Rules, with stroke and distance, all putts holed, etc?  What is the AVERAGE for those rounds?

I've been a member of 6 different private clubs over the past 40 years.  All of those clubs featured a fast to VERY fast pace of play even on Saturday morning, EXCEPT in club tournaments.  The next four ball stroke play tournament round that I play that is under 4.5 will be the first.  EVER!  I repeat, EVER!

Perhaps your experience, and the experience of others on this board is far different than mine, but I doubt it.  My guess is that you guys go out on a weekday afternoon, either by yourself or with a buddy or family member, expecting to zip around playing a form of golf but certainly not tournament golf.  When you find yourself behind either three foursomes (dual match) or 6 threesomes (tri match) of kids playing competitive stroke play for their teammates and their school, you get pissed because they've rained on your parade for that afternoon.  So perhaps the problem is the expectation of the person who wants to slap it around in 2.5 and still be home for dinner?

That's not close minded or intellectually lazy, or whatever you are going to call me next.  That's competitive golf, regardless of age; it was when you were a kid, and it will be years from now.  Doesn't mean the coaches aren't busting their humps to get the kids to play fast, and it doesn't mean the world is ending.  Get over it, ok?

I was always a basketball coach, but I coached golf for 5 years near the end of my career.  When people ask me if I miss coaching, I always say the same thing; I miss great kids and big wins.  When they ask me what I do NOT miss, I always say the same thing, too; parents who don't know what they don't know.  I think this "discussion" is heading in that general direction.

[Mike Sweeney]

AG,


I have been a member at Yale for 20+ years. It is basically a European style "membership" despite the name of the fancy university attached to it. Here are the very public rules:


http://thecourseatyale.org/course-rules/


Golf Course Etiquette

• Be ready to play at your assigned time.
• Keep the pace with the proceeding group.
• Groups are required to finish play in 4.5 hours.
• Players are expected to replace divots, fix ball marks, use the soil boxes on the par 3's and rake bunkers.
• Marshals will monitor play and instruct slow groups to keep pace.
• Coolers are prohibited. Soda and beer may be purchased in Widdy's or at the ninth tee.
• The use of communication devices on the golf course is prohibited except for medical emergencies.

Now Yale is one of the hardest golf courses in the USA. Blind shots on probably 6 holes, crazy greens and bunkers the size of moonscapes. I can't say that every round finishes in 4.5 hours, but they TRY.

I am sorry but I have seen great educators and I have seen "intellectually lazy" educators. I have two sons that are on opposite ends of the education system, one who is Autistic and one who is at the United States Naval Academy.

Lazy is lazy.

[Mike Sweeney]

So please stop looking at the world through the pseudo-high brow educator or ex-educator or whatever you say you are, lense. Please, just stop permeating everything you write with talking points from the Teachers' Union Talking Points Du Jour.   It's obvious, and more importantly, wrong.

I can't believe that I am now in the position of agreeing with Shivas! But if the future of golf depends on it, so be it! 

[A.G._Crockett]

"2. If you can just endure the horror of having kids on YOUR golf course for one or two late afternoons a week for a couple of more weeks, the whole thing will be over for another year; ..."

I'm sorry, AG, but this just F'ing insulting. This statement and the rest of your little diatribe. 

I have advocated getting more kids - high school and college - on my course for years. I want it badly.  I bet you know that based on whatever you think you know about me.

But that is TOTALLY different than whether or not they are slow. 

They're SLOW.  But I want to give them access anyway.  Those two are NOT inconsistent.

So please stop looking at the world through the pseudo-high brow educator or ex-educator or whatever you say you are, lense. Please, just stop permeating everything you write with talking points from the Teachers' Union Talking Points Du Jour.   It's obvious, and more importantly, wrong.

Dave,
I'm not sure what you are referring to in the last paragraph; I have NO idea how a discussion of pace of play for HS golfers relates in an way to "Teachers Union Talking Points Du Jour", or any of the rest of that.  I'm sure you'll enlighten me.

In the meantime, I'll ask you the same question that Mike Sweeney has thus far declined to answer, at least as far as I can see.  In your experience, which I take to be extensive, what have YOU found to be the AVERAGE time for a four ball stroke play competition round played completely under the Rules?  In the club championships in which YOU have competed, have the rounds been 4 completed in less than 4 hours, or more than 4 hours?