[Will MacEwen]

A birdie being a bonus doesn't make it lucky.

I still fail to see how a Tour player hitting a 6 iron to 15 feet and making a putt is lucky.

There have been enough birdies on 18 to win that they are hardly rare, especially when one considers the stakes. Making the hole easier, which you are advocating for, would not make it more strategic.

As for the chute, I don't think I have ever seen a player anywhere near contention not negotiate it successfully.

[Ken Moum]

Preach brother Gib. I've been watching the Masters for so many years and every time I see the tee shot on 18 it makes me queasy.

I've felt the same way. And standing behind the 18 championship tee made me feel that way too.

But last time I was there (in 2011) I got a chance to stand on the members tee.

Even for a crooked driver like me it wasn't daunting at all.

K

[Keith OHalloran]

My goal is to learn enough about GCA that I can one day criticize ANGC. It seems so fun. As of now, I am stuck with my ignorance and love of the course.

[Kalen Braley]

Once again, individual data points that buck the trend are completely uninteresting...especially when one MUST play aggressive to continue in the tournament in a 72nd hole situation.

The historical data is far more interesting to indicate the mindset when players are navigating the hole round in and round out.

P.S.  If you want to cherry pick, interesting there is no mention of Arnie and Greg Norman fubar'ing 18 to lose the Masters...among the dozens of other players who played 18 aggressive and failed spectacularly.

[Will MacEwen]

So the fact that you can lose the tournament on 18 by playing aggressively but executing fairly is a negative?  I see it as a positive.

It seems like you are advocating for an easy birdie hole.  If a player steps on the 18th tee with a one stroke lead, or deficit, or tie, the outcome is decidedly uncertain, and will be determined by how aggressively he plays (which is not in any way to be confused with strategy, because the hole is entirely devoid of strategy), and how well he executes his non-strategic game plan through exacting shots.

I'm okay with it.

[Joe Hancock]

I don't know how it's anything but fairway hunting off the tee and pin hunting for the approach. The only decisions come after non-execution of either of the previous shots.

[Will MacEwen]

I don't know how it's anything but fairway hunting off the tee and pin hunting for the approach. The only decisions come after non-execution of either of the previous shots.

Isn't that true of most holes at this level? They have a plan off the tee to hit a target off the tee, and then hit it close all while avoiding trouble. When they deviate from the plan decisions have to be made. If their drive lands correctly, they don't have to make a decision on the approach shot. That's why they drove it there.

[Will MacEwen]

I will acknowledge that Deschambeau is currently not a fan of the hole.

[Keith OHalloran]

I will acknowledge that Deschambeau is currently not a fan of the hole.

 

[Will MacEwen]

I will acknowledge that Deschambeau is currently not a fan of the hole.

 

The fact that three guys on the clock are butchering/struggling should make it a GCA favourite...

[BHoover]

Am I alone in lamenting that the players in the Masters seem to be focused more on their individual scores than in appreciating, and where appropriate, criticizing, the architectural features of ANGC?

End the scorecard and pencil authoritarianism!

[BCowan]

Hoover,

   You are not alone.  However, some I believe have expressed favorable views on changes to #11-13. 

[Jim Nugent]

-- Historically, the 18th plays as the 7th toughest with an average of 4.22.
 

I think you read the wrong stat.  According to Masters.com (http://www.masters.com/en_US/course/hole18.html) the historical average for #18 is 4.159.  That makes it 8th hardest, and one of the easier par 4s: 6 par 4s are harder, and 3 easier. 

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

This is where I pulled it from:

http://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/historical/cumulative.html

For Par 4s:

3, 7, 9, 14, and 17 all show as easier...so with 10 par 4s, its ranked in the top half as the 5th hardest par 4...

[Jim Nugent]

Kalen, I wonder why the same source (masters.com) gives two different numbers? 

Either way, the story is mostly the same.  Over all Masters, the hole has averaged around 4.2 strokes, give or take several hundredths of a stroke.  It's around the middle of the pack among par 4s, with several others slightly harder (in the stats I linked) or slightly easier (in the stats you linked). 

[Kalen Braley]

Yea,

That is odd indeed.  The hole is playing hard this year...its the 5th toughest thru two rounds...

[Jason Topp]

Gib:


It is only a bad hole if you have a myopic and conventional (for here) view of what constitutes a good golf hole.


The tunnel off the tee is an appropriate test for a professional and is less of a challenge from the tees you and I would play. 


For many players the requirement of a slice poses a strategic choice off the tee - between a driver slice (which is in contrast to the direction favored off the tee all day on the rest of the course) and a straight ball short of the bunkers.  Before they lengthened the hole, the strategic choice was nonexistent because players would just hit a hook over or left of the bunkers.  The added trees on the left side also forced such a requirement.


The green provides an ideal mix of hole locations from extremely difficult to spots that gather the ball.  The green sits very naturally in its hillside and is an example of the type of look we should applaud. 


The shorter version of the hole had become a tee shot to a wide open area and a wedge for which the position one hit it off the tee was of little importance. 


Is it my favorite - no - but I consider it a good hole, particularly in the context of the entire course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't know how it's anything but fairway hunting off the tee and pin hunting for the approach. The only decisions come after non-execution of either of the previous shots.

I agree with you on the tee shot. The evolution of the first half of so of 18 have created a situation similar to the fwy bunker change on 1, lamentably. The point is purely to land the ball in a zone from where the second shot can be attempted.

I disagree with you Joe on the second shot. The three tiers of the green present mental and skill tests that require the flogger to consider the appropriate level of aggression as to line and carry. Those same tiers present an interesting third shot, too, as occasions present.

[BCowan]

P.S.  Our Beloved Ran said this a few years back about the last two holes.

And finally, the 18th is second to the 11th as the hardest hole through three rounds. I don’t in any way think this makes it a ‘great’ finishing hole - hearing how the tee ball is through a chute of trees is akin to nails on a chalkboard, to me at least. Indeed, when combined with the chip-out-a-thon at the 17th, the two holes make an uninspired finish, unless you are into NASCAR and just want to see wrecks. Regardless, none of us will be turning off the television sets early as absolutely no lead is safe when one gets to the 17th tee.

Kalen,

   I disagree very much with you and his Ranness.  The 14th tee at Inverness had a chute of pines you hit through on the Championship tee and this feature was original until 99' renovations and lengthening.  I loved having to hit a straight or fade shot out of a chute.  Very cool feature.  If one came at it from the inside a little they would clip the pines.  This feature wasn't there on the members tees and I believe it is less of an issue for members tees at ANGC.  The beautiful thing is the uphill lie for the 2nd at ANGC with the green tiers.  The green is exposed to wind which is great.  I think if they planted dogwoods behind the green, put a pond right of the green and a bunker on the other side many on her would say it was the best finishing hole in Championship golf 

 

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