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Bob Montle

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2016, 03:57:52 PM »
There is little strategy, that's correct. What there is instead is the need to hit a terrific golf shot worthy of a true champion on the most public and pressure packed stage in all of professional golf ..........

Peter, you have done it again.
As I was reading I thought "wow, this man has a way with words!"
My next thought was that it had to be Peter.
And it was.

Loved it.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2016, 04:24:36 PM »

MB,

What is an example of a good one-shot hole, architecturally speaking?


cheers
vk

To keep it local, we can start with the 4th.

Peter, Sensei, how is it that all par 3s generate random scores? This is a proof I gotta see -- take your time, I've cleared all nine whiteboards in our amphitheater pit.  ;D
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V. Kmetz

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2016, 09:11:10 PM »
MB,
I was hoping you would offer more than just a simple statement of one you surmise...HOW is #4 a sounder piece of design than #16? what proportion or features make it so?


cheers
vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom_Doak

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2016, 09:46:10 PM »
Counterpoint:  It's a great green.  You actually DO see players miss it in the water sometimes because missing the green to the right brings the possibility of putting your second shot in the water.  The chip shot holed by Tiger [or, as many have forgotten, Davis Love a few years before him] proves the worth of the hole.

Tim_Cronin

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2016, 09:54:12 PM »
This is a tremendous par 3.
The high right cup brings the maddening back right bunker into play. You can knock it into the water from there, and more likely than not will at least be down the slope – the best part of the green – to the lower left tier.
The low right cup brings the water and missing the green into play.
The Sunday high left cup brings the front bunker, the water and the possibility of hanging the slingshot approach out to the right. All manner of numbers possible with this pin, from 1 to 7+.
Today's cup (low left) was one I hadn't seen in a while. Again, the water is a factor. Ask Jason Day.
It works architecturally, strategically, and it's not bad to look at, in person or on television.
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On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jason Thurman

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2016, 10:12:27 PM »
Counterpoint:  It's a great green.  You actually DO see players miss it in the water sometimes because missing the green to the right brings the possibility of putting your second shot in the water.  The chip shot holed by Tiger [or, as many have forgotten, Davis Love a few years before him] proves the worth of the hole.


Sure. And in other news, the guys from Quiet Riot like Slade. I've played the 6th at CommonGround.


Seriously though, I agree with you completely. Watching the replay tonight, the hole and its green put on a real show today.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Peter Pallotta

Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2016, 09:51:10 AM »
Mark -
You make several mistakes typical of all young truth seekers. You confuse an observation (and a pet term/theory, to which you are unduly attached simply because it is your pet term/theory) with a conspiracy or subtle secret worthy of the ancient gnostics. Of course, in retrospect, the 16th appears to be a deus ex machina -- but the drama you (and the rest of us) witness every Sunday in April is engendered not by some accidental alchemical process through which worthless architectural lead is transmuted into Masters tournament gold; no, it is the product of a conscious intent that your betters (and mine) carefully planned and created many decades ago, e.g. as sensei Tom D notes, the water on the left serving to suggest an apparently safe bailout to the right, which bailout leaves one with a terrifying and difficult downhill putt towards the same watery grave one tried so hard to avoid -- thus testing both nerve and skill and both long game and short all at the one same golf hole. 

Secondly, you compound your first mistake by then arguing from your (faulty) premise to suggest that, since this championship Sunday drama is "manufactured" (and not organically issuing forth from -- and inherent in -- the design itself) it must be via a mechanism that most amps-up that drama, i.e. your so-called random score generator. I admit, a catchy term, and for the novices amongst us perhaps seeming to be a brilliant and significant insight; but in truth it is a description of nothing more than any and all golf holes (by great architects like Dr Mac and Donald Ross and Colt and Coore and Doak etc) in which, as the estimable Bob C has noted,  "small differences in shot placement make such profound differences in outcomes." Now, feel free to stretch the meaning of a word like random as far as you'd like, you still will not have to apply to a situation like this, i.e. to a green site where small -- but definite and measurable and repeatable -- differences in "input" lead inexorably to definite and measurable and repeatable "outputs".  In other words, what in retrospect appear as various good and not so good scores that, in retrospect, add greatly to the drama of a tournament Sunday you have all used (in some typically twisted gnostic way) as proof that the golf hole in question is an architecturally poor one instead of the great one that is has in fact proven to be. How strange.

Not to get all Pat M on you, but have you played Crystal Downs? As you may know, it is famed for many things, including its great set of sloping, contoured greens. Are those greens "random score generators" in your mind? If I am playing a match against a much better player, and somehow we come to the 16th hole all square, and I am hitting my third onto the green while he is hitting his second, but my shot ends up below that hole while his ends up above it, such that I sink my putt while he nervously twitches one that slides past the hole and keeps rolling, and then proceeds to miss the come-backer -- is the drama that is created manufactured, and is that manufactured gold a product of architectural lead? Please think carefully before you answer..... 

   

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2016, 10:07:35 PM »
I have enjoyed some of the back and forth on this.   I am more in the point than the counterpoint camp, but I can see both sides of this debate.


Can somebody point out a hole they think is similar to 16 at August (that is not used in professional golf tournaments on a regular basis)  for which they have much respect?

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2016, 06:39:49 AM »

Sensei,


Intent off the tee isn't random but outcome is:

1) the green's slope and locations on it: sometimes balls stay up, sometimes they don't. Nobody knows why. So pros aim for the less uncertain left side because the bunker miss carries more certainty--and, yes, because the randomness of the slope right (and beyond) carries almost universally bad outcomes.

2) the chips by Davis and Tiger are two successes out of how many total attempts by the field over the years? Those two shots SUPPORT my point. They just happened to win the lottery. It happens but don't confuse yourself by thinking it wasn't random. The numbers are very strong on this one.


3) this point about "small but definite and measurable" inputs? Everything can be measured but in the case measurable differences are within the tool's measurement error. See point 1) above.


4) I have not played or seen CD so by Mucci I can't make any comment on that one way or the other.

This grasshopper says you gonna need a bigger whiteboard!
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2016, 03:08:35 PM »
🎼 Dee-dee ditty ditty dee-dee dee deeeee.... 🎼
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2016, 03:30:38 PM »
🎼 Dee-dee ditty ditty dee-dee dee deeeee.... 🎼
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MClutterbuck

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2016, 03:37:29 PM »



A great par 3 that is very much strategic and also changes tremendously from day to day, awarding members with much variety. A fantastic green to putt as well.


Probably the best par-3 for members, 4 being tough and long, 6 being a much tougher shot to land on the good part of the green and 12, requiring so much precision to avoid a harsh penal outcome.


I see some negative comments due to balls sometimes staying up, sometimes not. It seems that argument could negatively impact many of the great courses in the world. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2016, 04:09:04 PM »
🎼 Dee-dee ditty ditty dee-dee dee deeeee.... 🎼
You see, Grasshopper, when you are a true sensei you can sit in blissful peace, uttering not a word, for Nature herself and men/women of goodwill everywhere (in this case, Tom, Tim and MClutterbuck) rise up to speak in unison and with one voice of the Truth.  Do you think to silence that Truth with clever rhetoric and childish ditties? My goodness man, the stones themselves will shout you down! You have overplayed your hand, Grasshopper, but that can be forgiven as a youthful indiscretion; but perhaps it is best for you now to repent of it, and withdraw from the field. We can admire your boldness and bravery -- but as the line from the Magnificent Seven (the Seven Samurai) suggests: the graveyards are full of young men who were very bold, and very brave.   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 04:15:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2016, 05:03:23 PM »
🎼 Dee-dee ditty ditty dee-dee dee deeeee.... 🎼
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2016, 05:12:31 PM »
🎼 Dee-dee ditty ditty dee-dee dee deeeee.... 🎼

The calliope monkey is getting tired!!
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2016, 05:16:32 PM »
Whatever you think, it is great theatre.

Terry Lavin

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2016, 05:17:21 PM »
What rollicking fun on the funnel hole location!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Carl Rogers

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2016, 06:04:47 PM »
How about the premise the 16th hole pond is mostly eye candy?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

MClutterbuck

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2016, 06:39:27 PM »
Look at how the hole required Jordan to go strait for the flag know he needs birdie, instead of playing safe to the right and hoping for the ball to roll down... great hole.

John McCarthy

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2016, 06:58:24 PM »
That is that...and 16 was a barrel of monkeys today. 

If this is bad architecture...

http://media.salon.com/2014/11/matrix_steak.jpg

I want to remember nothing (of Dr. Mackenzie's original).
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Sam Kestin

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2016, 01:21:06 PM »
I don't at all understand what "random score generator" means.


How is the sixteenth hole in any way random?


Save (of course) for Louis Oostheuizen's ace off the other guy's ball...


But to the point--isn't it utterly predictable based off where a ball lands where it will end up? Doesn't it just appear somewhat "random" to us because we see it two-dimensionally and not three-dimensionally? My instinct is that if you had boots on the ground at Augusta and were able to walk around that green you would get a pretty good sense of "when a ball is dropped at X it ends up at Y."


I don't at all believe Tiger's chip (or Davis' or Langasque's) was "random" or "lucky"--Steve Williams described the moment and said Tiger had picked out a small spot on the green not much larger than a dime to land it on. He said Tiger landed it right on the nose on that spot--and through a feat of incredible planning and execution the ball found the bottom at perfect speed on the perfect line. What about this is in any way lucky? How is this not an absolutely perfect shot under the most intense pressure?


Why is it considered "lucky" to do something simply because it hasn't been done particularly frequently? Why is it considered "random" when a ball that flies 146 ends up someplace radically different than a ball that flies 147?


I'm just confused at the logic on this.

Mac Plumart

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2016, 12:47:19 PM »
It's a rinky-dink goofy golf type hole for the reasons you mention. It derives its legitimacy merely from its position in the round and from the Masters.


Yes, it derives a lot of its "legitimacy" from its position in the round and from The Masters. And, frankly, that is what makes it a great hole.


The back nine at Augusta National (The Masters) is the best routed stretch of holes in the world for big time tournament golf.  The risk/reward of those holes and the importance of those holes in the greater scheme of the tournament is as good as it gets. 


Frankly, the actual number written down as "par" for those holes is meaningless.  At 13, if you don't make birdie...you feel like you've lost ground.  That's what makes the hole so great.  You are compelled to go for eagle, if you are chasing.  And you've got a canted fairway and creek to deal with.  And we could go hole by hole and delve into what they make the players think, and therefore do, as they are coming down the back stretch on Sunday at The Masters.  But we are talking 16.


The beauty of it is that it has drama and can change the leader board in a hurry, which can put more pressure on the others playing...or yourself, if you don't make a good score.  And that, in turn, makes 17 and 18 better...or all the holes before it, if an early player in the round is making a run at the leaders.


You can make a hole in one...we saw that at this year's Masters, for sure.  Or you can put it in the water...saw that too.


Again, yes, 16 derives its greatness from its placement in the routing on the back nine and from the fact a Major Championship is played there every year.  But when you pull back from the hole and see the entirety of the course, specifically the back nine, and the importance of who plays there and why they are playing there, you see how all the holes feed off of one another to make them great.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2016, 02:08:42 PM »
From the opening post:


Hitting it in the water is just awful because generally players don't need to risk the water (because of the severity of the green's slope)  in order to get it close to left pins. And basically going for right pins is just stupid because the bunker is so penal.   So you have no strategy.   Tremendous randomness of result attached to incredibly similar shots. 


This reminds me of the time after the end of the TPC at Sawgrass in 1982, when Ed Sneed cornered Pete Dye about the 13th hole at the TPC.  He described in detail how he and Hale Irwin had hit their shots two feet apart in the final round, and how the first ball had taken the slope in the green and funneled down to three feet from the hole, while the other, just two feet higher, stayed up on the high tier with a very difficult putt.  His concluding point was that even the pros are not so good as to control where they land within two feet.


Mr. Dye's rebuttal was, paraphrasing, "Well, why are you aiming at a slope you just said you're not good enough to hit?  You're aiming at the slope because you are too chicken to aim at the flag and risk pulling your shot into the water.  Therefore, you deserve whatever random result you get."

Sean_A

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2016, 04:46:53 AM »
I think Tom is rather obviously correct.  The Sunday location on 16 is a classic choose your poison hole.  Par can be made from 360 degrees around the hole and often is.  Sure, there is an element of good fortune when a ball funnels down the slope, but I fail to see why that is an issue.

However, I question if one hole location makes for a great hole. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 04:50:38 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

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Re: 16 at Augusta. Point/Counterpoint
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2016, 05:16:57 AM »
Usually with the Masters Sunday pin there are a few near miss holes in one on the 16th. This year, well, seems like someone left a large full tin of paint overnight on the spot the hole was going to be cut the next day and shots  rolled in accordingly.
Atb

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