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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2016, 06:44:43 PM »
I would write the rules for courteous following if I thought anyone was interested. Those are rules I would like to see posted on the first tee. When implemented properly everyone plays at exactly the pace they wish without holding anyone up.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2016, 07:48:37 PM »
Ian:  Tour stats are irrelevant.  Being faster than those guys is worthy of winning the proverbial rubber cookie, a worthless booby-prize.

They're a joke. They're BRUTAL.  And a lot of them who are naturally fast have intentionally slowed themselves down because they know they have nowhere to go. 

I don't give a damn about those guys or ANY of their habits. 

What I do know is that there are plenty of fast players with no practice swings who are ready to play and done with all their mental work (club selection, deciding what type of shot to play etc) well before its their turn to play who hit their golf ball literally within a few seconds of the guy on the other side of the fairway who just hit.  And they start walking before their ball stops moving.  Those guys are fast.  I happen to know one. :) .   

You're right that pre-shot routines are the bane of the game. Dr Bob Rotella should be beaten with a mashie within an inch of his life for teaching all his slow down and take your time and meditate crap.  Just hit the damn ball.  There's no good reason for a practice swing on a normal, stock shot like a drive or a straight ball approach.  Only specialty shots deserve practice swings.  If I ran the USGA, I would consider practice swings penalties and ban them.  Just line Cheater Lines and Cheater Lasers.  I'd ban them too. 

Good players are always the worst.  They better the player the more ridiculous the pre-shot routine.  The level of Tour worship and copycatting is just too damn high.


David, I cited these stats purely for a frame of reference.
I agree. Tour stats mean nothing, but it does show the hi/low and mean and that can be helpful to some.


We play a 4-ball in 3:00 and we are all over 50 and we hole out everything except 18" ers.
We are not rushed. We are extremely efficient and are laughing the entire way while insulting each other every other hole.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2016, 07:51:47 PM »
Look at the names I'm being called because I admit I'm a slow golfer. You will not solve your perceived problems until you see this as a two way street and work on both sides of the issue. Do any of you really believe that I'm the only slow golfer on this board? Before you answer, I know and have played with most of you.




John,  I called you a name because your editorials begin to drift off-topic. Stop being so sensitive. When you call someone a "pithy commentator" and have yet never met them, then I would just ask that return back under your bridge.


Cheers

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2016, 11:12:24 PM »
  I remember at one BUDA being appalled as we stood on a tee, a couple of holes behind the group in front, whilst a member of this site, who had the honour, started to talk to the rest of the 4 ball about the merits of the hole we were about to play.  Just play your bloody shot.......

Was it a Redan?

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2016, 08:53:03 AM »
When the Singapore Golf Club hosted a TWGS event, anyone that did not play the front 9 in under 2 hours was caned.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2016, 08:56:04 AM »
  I remember at one BUDA being appalled as we stood on a tee, a couple of holes behind the group in front, whilst a member of this site, who had the honour, started to talk to the rest of the 4 ball about the merits of the hole we were about to play.  Just play your bloody shot.......

Was it a Redan?
No, not even a particularly remarkable hole, so far as I can remember.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2016, 09:20:11 AM »
Ian:  Tour stats are irrelevant.  Being faster than those guys is worthy of winning the proverbial rubber cookie, a worthless booby-prize.

They're a joke. They're BRUTAL.  And a lot of them who are naturally fast have intentionally slowed themselves down because they know they have nowhere to go. 

I don't give a damn about those guys or ANY of their habits. 

What I do know is that there are plenty of fast players with no practice swings who are ready to play and done with all their mental work (club selection, deciding what type of shot to play etc) well before its their turn to play who hit their golf ball literally within a few seconds of the guy on the other side of the fairway who just hit.  And they start walking before their ball stops moving.  Those guys are fast.  I happen to know one. :) .   

You're right that pre-shot routines are the bane of the game. Dr Bob Rotella should be beaten with a mashie within an inch of his life for teaching all his slow down and take your time and meditate crap.  Just hit the damn ball.  There's no good reason for a practice swing on a normal, stock shot like a drive or a straight ball approach.  Only specialty shots deserve practice swings.  If I ran the USGA, I would consider practice swings penalties and ban them.  Just line Cheater Lines and Cheater Lasers.  I'd ban them too. 

Good players are always the worst.  They better the player the more ridiculous the pre-shot routine.  The level of Tour worship and copycatting is just too damn high.


David, I cited these stats purely for a frame of reference.
I agree. Tour stats mean nothing, but it does show the hi/low and mean and that can be helpful to some.


We play a 4-ball in 3:00...

Not with caddies carrying doubles, you don't - unless you share a caddie with Blake because with that chase move, he never misses a fairway...


David, yes, we do!
Blake is too slow for our group.


Love how deep he went into match play at the Mid Am last year, but he takes too long over his putts.... ;D ....although most go in.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2016, 09:30:17 AM »
A few friends and I have a running joke that a GCAer telling you how fast he played is about as reliable as a 22 handicap telling you how far he hit his drive. Now, mere weeks after a scandal that involved peddling "Mackenzie drawings" corroborated by a "journal" that we weren't allowed to see, we're being told that someone has an 18 second preshot routine corroborated by video that is also conspicuously unavailable for public viewing.


Color me skeptical, but impressed with the originality. Listening to someone brag about preshot routine is a very welcome and hilarious departure from listening to someone brag about a "310 yard drive!" that went 208 yards.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2016, 09:33:09 AM »
I will have to support Ian's claims of a fast round. He has beaten me into submission on Saturday mornings. Indeed, I have been subjected to his "video of shame."


"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2016, 09:45:04 AM »
I have no idea what my pre-shot timing is, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how much time does one take.   

When I was timed as the first player on a 150 yard par 3 this is what occurred: determine club, pull club, peg ball, address ball, hit, watch shot finish, pick up peg, repair divot & replace club....59 seconds. 

When I was timed as the second player on an approach to a par 4 this is what occurred: address ball, hit, watch shot finish....23 seconds.  Club was pulled prior to my turn and divot could be replaced while others hit. 

Of course, sometimes it takes more time if there are blind shots or previous partner shots didn't do as I predicted/expected.  Sometimes it takes less time if its a routine driver hole.   I have no idea what the averages are for the various scenarios, but my times don't strike me as fast.  I am a slooooow walker and yet I rarely find it difficult on my part to complete a 4ball in less than 4 hours.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2016, 10:12:55 AM »
The length of round is immaterial. Of the clubs I play my typical fourball rounds are by course: 2.5 hrs, 3.0 hrs, 4 hrs, and 4.5 hrs. These are the exact same golfers playing at the exact same pace. I guess I average 3.5 hours as a foursome for my rounds. I must be a fast golfer just like you guys.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2016, 12:13:54 PM »
A few friends and I have a running joke that a GCAer telling you how fast he played is about as reliable as a 22 handicap telling you how far he hit his drive. Now, mere weeks after a scandal that involved peddling "Mackenzie drawings" corroborated by a "journal" that we weren't allowed to see, we're being told that someone has an 18 second preshot routine corroborated by video that is also conspicuously unavailable for public viewing.


Color me skeptical, but impressed with the originality. Listening to someone brag about preshot routine is a very welcome and hilarious departure from listening to someone brag about a "310 yard drive!" that went 208 yards.


I see no place for "bragging about a pre-shot routine" and to imply that is to admit ignorance to the intent of the original post.


The topic turned to basically how can gold be played faster and I opined that one can play faster without hurrying by going about one's business while others are doing theirs. Yes, this does include perhaps reducing your routine by 10-12 seconds which does, in fact, have a material effect cumulatively on the length of a round.


More than anything else, golfers need to stop watching other golfers and start preparing to hit a shot - any shot, drive, putt, chip - well before it is their proper turn.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2016, 02:01:50 PM »
Well sure, Ian. That's always the resolution when anyone discusses the key to playing faster. It just boils down to being ready before it's your turn.


Of course, that has nothing to do with the original post which asks for help identifying policies that a club can enact to speed up pace of play. For all your ranting about 18 second preshot routines and ready golf, you've not yet identified a single meaningful intervention a club can adopt to encourage faster play. I do think that one of us is ignorant to the intent of the original post, or at least completely disregarding it.


I don't really mind though. I just want to see this video. It has the potential to erode some of the distrust I feel every time a GCAer tells me how fast a player they are, and the sliver of inner peace that would give me is well worth disregarding the off-topic intent of the original post.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2016, 02:07:44 PM »
Jason,

How long do you expect a round a Wolf Run with three guests to take? Are you a Slowbie like me?

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2016, 02:34:06 PM »

It really depends on who I'm playing with and when. 4 hours is very reasonable if the course isn't congested. Much less than that is hard to pull off, and it's easy to get up around 4:30 if someone's having an off day. Longer than that is rare, but only because it's a private club with a very strong playing membership so we're rarely slowed too much by other groups. If Wolf Run was public, I suspect Nigel and I would still be on the 11th hole of the round we played last September, no doubt with a twosome standing on the tee behind us with their hands on their hips. It should be noted that Wolf Run gives no status to singles or twosomes on the course, which sets the expectation that everyone will be playing at the day's pace as set by the groups of 3 and 4 that comprise most of the tee sheet.




I'm as fast a player as the day's conditions allow. I played 18 with a coworker of mine two weeks ago in under two hours out of spite after checking in at 4:30 on an empty 5800 yard course and being told by the guy behind the counter that we "might finish 14 holes, but it gets dark around 7:30 so probably not any more than that." Last weekend I played a crowded municipal course with my father-in-law (who is a true beginner), a friend of his that plays once every few months, and a plus-handicap who played in college and occasionally plays on the Web.com Tour. We finished in 4:45 because we made a weekend afternoon tee time on a crowded course, and had a great time once we settled in and accepted that we weren't getting around in a hurry.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:39:18 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2016, 02:37:02 PM »
Well sure, Ian. That's always the resolution when anyone discusses the key to playing faster. It just boils down to being ready before it's your turn.


Of course, that has nothing to do with the original post which asks for help identifying policies that a club can enact to speed up pace of play. For all your ranting about 18 second preshot routines and ready golf, you've not yet identified a single meaningful intervention a club can adopt to encourage faster play. I do think that one of us is ignorant to the intent of the original post, or at least completely disregarding it.


I don't really mind though. I just want to see this video. It has the potential to erode some of the distrust I feel every time a GCAer tells me how fast a player they are, and the sliver of inner peace that would give me is well worth disregarding the off-topic intent of the original post.


Wow, OK....guess I need to be specific. Thought it was implied...


NEW CLUB POLICY: We hereby ask that all members playing between 7:00 and and 10:00 am do so under "Ready Golf" rules. Please see below what this means. The new target for a 4-ball round here at Hard of Hearing Country Club is now 3:30 or less. This policy has also been enacted at our neighbor club, Stubborn Hills.


DETAILS: For a detailed explanation of how this can be done, please see Ian Mackenzie's detailed post on Golf Club Atlas. We have printed a copy below. For those members who wish to take their sweet-ass time playing in 4:15-4:30, we encourage you to pair up with the ladies and senior members after 10 for a spirited social round followed by cucumber sandwiches in the pub where Jason Thurman and John Kavanaugh will deliver a presentation called: "Screw Fast Play: We Think Fast Players are all Liars". Followed by a Q&A and how they believe it is their God-given right to play at whatever pace they deem appropriate.


Sign-up in the golf shop.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2016, 03:17:07 PM »
Ian,

Hilarious post, loved it!!   ;D

Of the young players I've chatted with about pace of play, I think you alluded to it very well.  By far and away the prevailing thinking of most was "I paid my green fees, I'll take my sweet damn time if I want" as if the entire course belongs to them for the day.

So in terms of culture/mindset, I think it could be effective to engrain that a tee time only gets you a spot on the course, on a hole by hole basis, at a specified time of day. 

P.S.  However, none of these measures in this thread will work without some type of enforcement, whether it be positive or negative.  Given most places don't want to actually do the negatives, perhaps courses could use positive incentives to accomplish this.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2016, 11:29:15 AM »
Something I wrote 20 years ago. I sweat the story is true.

Mallards Hotel Bar - Gullane.



A Lesson from a Lady in Scotland
by Gib Papazian


What is it, exactly, that you Americans are doing on a golf course for four hours?”


The query had come from my newfound Scottish friend as we were sharing a pint in a modest hotel bar in East Lothian, Scotland. We had been discussing the cultural differences between the American and Scottish attitudes towards golf. He was a member of the Royal and Ancient on a weekend golf outing with some of his fellow members. My companions and I were a foursome of traveling pilgrims who had journeyed to Mecca in search of the true roots of golf - and a sad example of the results of reading “Golf in the Kingdom” too many times. Naturally, our conversation turned to the most glaring and sensitive difference in our two golfing cultures, the pace of play. Sensing and international incident in the making, my American companions bravely excused themselves off to bed, leaving me to fend for myself. I explained that, while four hours seems like an eternity to a Scotsman to play a round of golf, in the United States we have been conditioned to consider that acceptable. Unfortunately, I then made the mistake of revealing that it is hardly unusual to suffer through five or even six-hour rounds on our public courses at home. THE ROOM fell silent . . . an astonished silence. In a less civilized age, I would have been convicted of heresy and burned at the stake. You see, there are very few private clubs in Scotland. The local public course is a source of great pride in the community, and the idea of a golfer being so thoughtless and rude as to take up that much time is unthinkable. Golf in Scotland is played in 3 ½ hours maximum. Period. Players holding up the parade are firmly admonished by marshals that they must keep up - and everyone does. In our country, marshals are often so worried about offending somebody that they hesitate to push slow groups along. They ought to worry far more about not offending the players stacked up behind them. We should take a lesson from the Scots, and empower our marshals with the authority to crack the whip on the donkeys, or toss them off the track. Give the worst offenders the hook and the word would get around quickly that slugs are not tolerated. Any course with the guts to follow through with this policy would soon find itself a haven for fast players. It also doesn’t take a mathematician to calculate the increase in revenue from the additional green fees. Golf’s popularity grows every day all over the world. We need to educate the new crop of converts that a five-hour death march is not normal. Tournament play is one thing, and it is understandable how in pressure situations golf can take slightly longer. What is not understandable is how a guy can plumb-bob an 18-inch putt for quadruple-bogey while the rest of humanity are pitching tents waiting. PEOPLE WHO watch and emulate professionals on the PGA Tour should remember that there is a huge difference between playing your brother-in-law for a two-dollar nassau, and playing for a Green Jacket with 20 million people watching. I thought of my Scottish friend several days later at St. Andrews, when in the shadow of the Royal and Ancient, we stumbled upon the true roots of golf. Her name was Clara McInnes, and she was 78 years old. We were seated on the steps behind the 18th green of the Old Course watching groups come in. She came marching down the fairway with a canvass golf bag slung over her shoulder. Stopping only to swat the ball with her old brassie, her much younger playing partners - and their caddies toting enormous golf bags - struggled to keep up. Clara wisely played a perfect bump and run shot up the front of the green through the “Valley of Sin,” the ball coming to rest 10 feet from the pin. While the rest of the group was busy chili-dipping their pitch shots, Clara pulled her ancient putter out of the bag and walked briskly onto the green directly behind her ball. She read the line as she did. When it was her turn to putt, she barely hesitated and rammed that 10-footer into the back of the cup. Naturally we all began clapping. Looking back, maybe it wasn’t just her putt we were applauding. Maybe it was that Clara McInnes represents golf as it was meant to be played, or perhaps we were clapping for Scotland, and the game we love so much. There is a lesson here for all of us. She acknowledged us with a curtsey and a wink, picked up her bag and set off for home.

What is it then, exactly, that we Americans are doing on a golf course?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:42:33 AM by Gib Papazian »

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2016, 03:44:13 PM »
Well this topic is full of entertaining "discussion".

On the public/resort side you are in a no win situation. The guests will treat my staff like garbage, be it slow players who are moved or removed or fast players wanting to play in 2 hours 30 minutes.

While the maximum pace is set at a rather pathetic 4 hours 30 minutes we are pretty aggressive in our enforcement. That said - shit happens - and there are days when the on course staff screw up/don't feel like another confrontation and we end up at 4:45 or so.

Heck our least problema are 5somes which we allow most of the time. Why? They get a speech informing them we are not interested in the 4 hour 30 minute max pace fo their group. Given they are being obliged in allowing the 5some they will play will ahead of such pace or riske being removed immediately from the course. Simple explanation is any 5some is bad optics... not willing to spend one minute dealing with such a group playing anything other than quickly. I honestly do not recall the staff having to remove a 5some from the course, numerous 4somes over the years, but nary a 5some.

People are people, that is the problema. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2016, 04:38:33 PM »
It all comes down to having respect for other players on the course and little tolerance for those who do not. Respect for the groups behind you if you are behind a slow group in asking the slow group in front to either speed up or let your group through. And in respecting the groups behind if you are slow by either speeding up or letting those quicker players behind through without undue delay.

The problem is not in taking 4, 5 or 6 hours to play but rather in thinking it is alright to make others do the same.

Jon

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2016, 04:52:52 PM »
It all comes down to having respect for other players on the course and little tolerance for those who do not. Respect for the groups behind you if you are behind a slow group in asking the slow group in front to either speed up or let your group through. And in respecting the groups behind if you are slow by either speeding up or letting those quicker players behind through without undue delay.

The problem is not in taking 4, 5 or 6 hours to play but rather in thinking it is alright to make others do the same.

Jon

No doubt Jon and to that end we have had slow groups respond with "F*&$ Them" when informed of the unhappy groups waiting behind them. Typically the staff will then give a very quick and simple math lesson before moving or removing the offending group.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2016, 05:06:16 PM »
It all comes down to having respect for other players on the course and little tolerance for those who do not. Respect for the groups behind you if you are behind a slow group in asking the slow group in front to either speed up or let your group through. And in respecting the groups behind if you are slow by either speeding up or letting those quicker players behind through without undue delay.

The problem is not in taking 4, 5 or 6 hours to play but rather in thinking it is alright to make others do the same.

Jon

Jon,

Just to play devil's advocate before JK fires away (because I agree with you in principle)....but doesn't that knife cut the bologna both ways?

Can't a fast group be rude for insisting on play thru, even if the group in front is keeping up to a good pace?  This has happened several times in the past where the whole course is backed up, but the group behind us just can't seem to figure that out and takes out their anger on us.

Additionally, isn't it rude to rush someone unduly if they're keeping up, especially if its a nice beautiful day and the birds are chirping, the flowers are blooming, etc.  Whats the big gawd damn hurry, be a real human and just enjoy it! ;)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2016, 06:01:19 PM »
It all comes down to having respect for other players on the course and little tolerance for those who do not. Respect for the groups behind you if you are behind a slow group in asking the slow group in front to either speed up or let your group through. And in respecting the groups behind if you are slow by either speeding up or letting those quicker players behind through without undue delay.

The problem is not in taking 4, 5 or 6 hours to play but rather in thinking it is alright to make others do the same.

Jon

Jon,

Just to play devil's advocate before JK fires away (because I agree with you in principle)....but doesn't that knife cut the bologna both ways?

Can't a fast group be rude for insisting on play thru, even if the group in front is keeping up to a good pace?  This has happened several times in the past where the whole course is backed up, but the group behind us just can't seem to figure that out and takes out their anger on us.

Additionally, isn't it rude to rush someone unduly if they're keeping up, especially if its a nice beautiful day and the birds are chirping, the flowers are blooming, etc.  Whats the big gawd damn hurry, be a real human and just enjoy it! ;)

Kalen,

I have highlighted the part that addresses your point however at the risk of playing devil's advocate if you were playing at 3 hour pace I doubt you would find the group behind asking to go through and if they did then maybe a tip of the hat in respect of their speed of play rather than your ire would be more appropriate. Players should allow quicker groups to play through where possible.

Jon

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2016, 10:51:49 PM »
Jon,

The scenario I'm referring to is:

1)  Your in a group that's on a pace to finish in 4 hours.
2)  But its a full Saturday and there are several groups in front of you, so most tees you have to wait briefly.
3)  Then a group comes thru, oblivious to how many groups are in front of you and are begging to get thru.
4)  And then you realize they'll have to play thru everyone else, slowing everyone else down a touch to let them play thru, creating a mini traffic jam, akin to people tapping their breaks in traffic and creating an accordion effect.

Many would consider this scenario rude.  Now if there were a few open holes in front of you this is an entirely different story...

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2016, 04:06:53 AM »
Kalen,

you need to stop looking at the problem in isolation as one group will not speed up a slow course. However one group these days will slow down a whole course and this is due to other tolerating it. It needs a change in culture in where players have consideration and respect for other by either playing faster or letting people through. If you are in a group where someone is slow then tell them to buck up. In the scenario you paint the patient is already dead as things have been allowed to slide.

It needs management to set a rule of decent pace of play and then to really stick to it. Yes, you would get some moaners to begin with and probably some people would not come back to play again but how many players would you gain if they knew on a Saturday afternoon a round of golf was possible in under three and a half hours? My guess is many would chose that option and with increased speed comes increased numbers and increased revenue. Win, win, win. It is a culture thing.

Jon