Does the reverse-cape work?

[Jason Thurman]

Last night I played Stonelick Hills, a fun and sometimes bizarre parkland course outside of Cincinnati. Designed by its owner, it's a course designed with no regard for walkability but the holes themselves have a lot going for them. Even the obligatory island green that every owner-designed course built in the post-Sawgrass world has on offer comes on a VERY reachable par 5 here rather than the typical 180 yard par 3, adding at least a small dimension of risk/reward to the cliche.


In particular, the par 4s offer a lot of variety. The short 11th is an interesting one. At well under 300 yards to the front edge (unless playing from the "pro" tees, which leave around 310), the possibility of driving the green exists for the very bold who can confidently go after one without worry that it will leak into the water that borders the fairway diagonally on the far side. Essentially, the result is a cape hole, but with the hazard coming into play for someone who runs through the fairway rather than someone who picks a line too bold. See photo (the pond is basically the same color as the rough, but you can tell it's there):




Does this "reverse-cape" concept work? Why or why not?

[Thomas Dai]

Jason,


Is the hole flat or does the fairway have contour or camber? Is the green is raised?


Atb

[Jason Thurman]

The hole is almost pancake-flat until the final 60 yards and green surroundings, where the left side of the hole falls off to a swale. A ball that misses the green left runs down to a low spot where the player hitting a chip can't really see the putting surface at all.

[Richard Hetzel]

The green is actually somewhat depressed if I remember correctly, unless I am thinking of number 2 and I might be. It makes for an interesting 2nd shot. For a short par 4 there is a lot of trouble to be found here. Stonelick is a pretty fun and challenging golf course, I have played it 3-4 times, and always walking. It's not a terrible walk, but a bit disjointed. Let me dig up a few pics.


Here is the view from the tee:



And a view from a bunker on the left side:





I wish I had a photo of the green complex, but I do not.

[Kalen Braley]

MPCC Shore #15 is very similar to this, but perhaps tougher as the bend in the "S" part of  fairway is fairly narrow.  So you either have to stay short of this or go for it...nothing really in between.

And like this hole, missing right is almost a guaranteed bogey.

[Alex Miller]

I like the look of this and think it works. Some very different strategies in play depending on hole location which I like too.

[Gib_Papazian]

This is actually a really interesting hole. I like the greenside pot bunker in just the right spot to make the gunners think about it before blasting away from the tee. One thing I’m particularly curious about is the putting surface contours. If you closely examine the “Cape” at Mid Ocean, it becomes obvious the green is designed to shoulder away a shot coming from the right side of the fairway.

From the left side of the landing area, adjacent to Mangrove Lake, there is what amounts to a catcher’s mitt contoured into the putting surface, oriented towards the edge of the shore. In other words, the closer you dare the water (off an elevated tee), the easier to get the approach close - especially because the green tends to nudge the ball towards the back left pin.

I’m curious, are there features on the putting surface that relate to the various angles of approach? It comes under Neal’s saying about “Getting the last 10% exactly right.” Also, is there a swale or drop-off on the left side of the green complex? That would polish off the various options from the fairway. Because I have a fairly malicious sense of humor, I’d put a large Principal’s Nose about 30 paces down the fairway to obscure the target for those who completely chicken out from the tee.

After posting this, I see everybody beat me to the obvious questions.
   

[Andrew Buck]

I much prefer this design on a risk/reward Drivable par 4.  A reasonable penalty for missing either way, and doesn't reward blowing it as far as you can past the hole. 

[Criss Titschinger]

Another view. I think I took this from around the forward tees.

[Jon McSweeny]

It seems like you end up with a fairly challenging tee shot for such a short hole. I would guess a few guys have managed to steer an  iron or hybrid right into one of those fairway bunkers.

With the water right, and the fall off behind the left side of the green- could you actually do away with the three fairway bunkers, replace them with some light rough, and still have a good hole?

[Richard Hetzel]

Here is the greenside bunker.

[Ron Smith]

Jason,

I thought it was a great hole as there were so many options off the tee.  The placement of the pin really dictates the value of going at the green or laying up.  The green had some great contours and the narrowing of the green in the center really creates some challenging angles for your approach shot.   I enjoyed the course and agree there are some great holes and a few head scratchers.  No points for walkability, but a great piece of property for a golf course with the varied terrain.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I can't believe that anyone would try to reach the green unless they were on vacation. On a direct line from the tee it's only about 13 yards wide. 
Looks like a fun-filled 100 yard pitch.

[Richard Hetzel]

I can't believe that anyone would try to reach the green unless they were on vacation. On a direct line from the tee it's only about 13 yards wide. 
Looks like a fun-filled 100 yard pitch.

My buddy routinely hits it 300+ off the tee. He goes for this green, each and every time. To my knowledge he has NEVER birdied the hole. He is either right in the pond, or far left down in the ravine (past the swale and greenside bunker). He would probably have to hit like a 9 iron or wedge off the tee (hits 6 iron 195) so he will never "lay up" on this hole. Smart play to play just right of the 150 to have a 140 or 135 or less second shot it.

[Alex Miller]

Another view. I think I took this from around the forward tees.

I like this visual a lot more. I think the hole would be great without the swale/raised green to the extent that it is, but still very good in its current form.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I can't believe that anyone would try to reach the green unless they were on vacation. On a direct line from the tee it's only about 13 yards wide. 
Looks like a fun-filled 100 yard pitch.

My buddy routinely hits it 300+ off the tee. He goes for this green, each and every time. To my knowledge he has NEVER birdied the hole. He is either right in the pond, or far left down in the ravine (past the swale and greenside bunker). He would probably have to hit like a 9 iron or wedge off the tee (hits 6 iron 195) so he will never "lay up" on this hole. Smart play it to play just right of the 150 to have a 140 or 135 or less second shot it.

Definitely a vacation-minded guy. 


p.s. Measuring the hole via Google shows that a 195 to 225 shot from the back tee to the middle of the fairway leaves a 100 +- yd. approach, given the angle of the turn.   Sounds like the perfect 6 iron /LW combo for your buddy.

[Nigel Islam]

Interesting because the hole actually seems to be a "cape" hole as well as being the "reverse cape" Obviously the bunker and rough being the part the hole bends around.


15 at Cambridge in Evansville has a similar look to it. It is actually a Tim Liddy design. I knew a guy who had a hole in one on the par 4. 

[Richard Hetzel]

I can't believe that anyone would try to reach the green unless they were on vacation. On a direct line from the tee it's only about 13 yards wide. 
Looks like a fun-filled 100 yard pitch.

My buddy routinely hits it 300+ off the tee. He goes for this green, each and every time. To my knowledge he has NEVER birdied the hole. He is either right in the pond, or far left down in the ravine (past the swale and greenside bunker). He would probably have to hit like a 9 iron or wedge off the tee (hits 6 iron 195) so he will never "lay up" on this hole. Smart play it to play just right of the 150 to have a 140 or 135 or less second shot it.

Definitely a vacation-minded guy. 


p.s. Measuring the hole via Google shows that a 195 to 225 shot from the back tee to the middle of the fairway leaves a 100 +- yd. approach, given the angle of the turn.   Sounds like the perfect 6 iron /LW combo for your buddy.

Jim,


he is a greedy golfer who tries to overpower everything. He just cant dial it back, especially on a hole that begs him to drive the green.

[Ronald Montesano]

Do you routinely bet him on this hole, just for S and G?


What is the shortest carry over the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg? Does the fairway narrow the closer you get to the green? I would love to play to 100 yards. I hate a layup to 140 yards, especially when it's half the hole's distance.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
He is a greedy golfer who tries to overpower everything. He just cant dial it back, especially on a hole that begs him to drive the green.

Rich,


Flipped over the hole looks like a decoy, and it sure lures your friend in.    Bring a duck call with you the next time you play.

[Richard Hetzel]

Do you routinely bet him on this hole, just for S and G?


What is the shortest carry over the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg? Does the fairway narrow the closer you get to the green? I would love to play to 100 yards. I hate a layup to 140 yards, especially when it's half the hole's distance.

Ron,


Of course I do. That carry is probably around 165 from the furthest bunker I think. It is pretty easy to hit into the water, ever for a shorter hitter. The area in front of the bunkers is ideal, but not a whole lot of room there either.

[Doug Siebert]

How much of a problem is that swale to the left? Even if you can't see the green surface, I like my odds short left at the bottom of the swale better than after laying up to 140! At least you won't make 5 from down there. Well, unless you end up in a divot, I guess. I think I'd try hitting either a driver (from the tips) or long iron at the greenside pot bunker or maybe a cut off the left towards that bunker. I don't miss many to the right so I wouldn't worry myself too much about the pond. I'd be more concerned about pulling it into those trees just left of the cartpath.

I guess the architect thought of the "hey, what if I just hit left of those trees into the other fairway" because that occurred to me for a second, but that green is quite shallow from that angle with the pond is hard behind it....and there's that pot bunker there to prevent you trying to bounce it in.

I love holes like this where there are (or at least appear to be) a lot of options. Maybe if I played it a few times I'd decide the 140 yard layup was the only real choice, but if I did I wouldn't like the hole anymore. Nothing worse than a short par 4 where the only decent option turns out to be a layup with a short iron!

[Matthew Petersen]

I've played several "reverse cape" type holes, and am usually not a fan. This one I like quite a bit given the shorter length.


The several I've played are longer par 4s and the conflict is really more about if you feel confident in hitting your drive all out knowing the water will eat you up if you run through the fairway. Meanwhile, if you lay back to be sure you're safe of the water, you end up with a very long approach. It's an interesting hole, but not one I think I've ever really enjoyed. But adding i  the idea of hitting driver to actually challenge the green is really interesting, because the lay up option leaves a very playable hole.