Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)

[MClutterbuck]

Here's a suggestion for the Councillor, why not extend the caravan park and develop chalets and family accommodation at affordable rates. That way, rather than hit and run golfers rushing round the country to play Open rota type courses, you will get families and groups spending time in the community and spending money in shops, cafes, pubs etc. The beauty of this cunning plan is you don't need to bulldoze a SSSI/RAMSAR site to achieve that. But then I suspect the local Councillor is doing exactly what he's accusing the government of doing, and that is playing politics.

Niall

Are not many of these Caravan Parks on dunesland/coast as well? Do these get approved easier than a golf course?

[Kalen Braley]

Did some quick googling...

Number of golf courses in Scotland?  ~550
Number of Caravan parks/camps in Scotland?  627

Yes, that's exactly what Scotland needs is more caravan and camp sites...that'll bring em in! 

[Bernie Bell]

Can you have a truly top shelf links without a caravan park?  I assume the developers included it in the plans.

[David_Tepper]

"Can you have a truly top shelf links without a caravan park?  I assume the developers included it in the plans."

Bernie B. -

There is already a large caravan park in Embo.

DT

[Adrian_Stiff]

IF COULS brought more people to Scotland then I would agree it is good.


The Golf tourist market in Scotland is primarily driven to a few destination areas. The Dornoch area is certainly not in the top 2 and probably just outside fifth.


The Americans come to Fife, East Lothians, Ayrshire on their first three goes.


The amount that may go very North is much slimmer and they tend to want old not new.


Overall I don't see new business. Anything generated would be theft from another zone.


With the current situation in the UK of over-supply I am more tended to agree with the planning decision on economic grounds.


Just my opinion....

If you think SCO does not complete with other countries, you are wrong. I am talking just one group, but this decision just changed our planning in favor of a different country. And yes, we have a 2021, 2023, 2025 plan in place. 2023 just changed.

So you cancel your plans in favour of golfing in Scotland because there will be no Couls golf course really so you will miss Dornoch, Brora, Cruden, Boat, Castle Stuart, plus a host of other good courses there won't be much of a following on that one.

[Kalen Braley]

Adrian,

For those on a somewhat tight schedule Dornoch to.... 

Cruden Bay - 3.25 hours away
Boat of Garten - 1.5 hours away
Castle Stuart - 1 hour away

And double that for the full round trip time cost, pretty big schedule hit for one course....

[Jon Wiggett]

Dornoch 5 minutes away
Golspie 10 minutes away
Tain 10 minutes away
Brora 20 minutes away
Fortrose & Rosemarkie 45 minutes away




Niall,


to answer your question on how a development can improve the area I suggest you read the history of the Fleetwood SSSI and the proposed development. That will answer you query.


Jon

[Ulrich Mayring]

I am undecided on this. But what bugs me is that Trump got his way and spoiled it for all others. It's a horrible precedent to set, because future developers are now discouraged to play fair.

Ulrich

[Garland Bayley]

Dornoch 5 minutes away
Golspie 10 minutes away
Tain 10 minutes away
Brora 20 minutes away
Fortrose & Rosemarkie 45 minutes away
...

Tarbat 20 minutes away. 😊

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am undecided on this. But what bugs me is that Trump got his way and spoiled it for all others. It's a horrible precedent to set, because future developers are now discouraged to play fair.

Ulrich

Yet another anecdote to again confirm that “Everything Trump Touches Dies”...


It would not at all surprise me if, given his investment at Turnberry and Aberdeen, Trump greased some officials along the way. Trump sees a Keiser as a competitor and knows his courses are ranked higher than his. That pisses him off and he may not have wanted to see one built in Scotland to leap over his.


So, he may have had a hand in it.


I AM NOT SAYING THIS HAPPENED....


Just sayin it wouldn’t surprise me.

[Bernie Bell]

Makes perfect sense when you think about it.  Not deranged at all.  Trump organization very tight with the Green Party.  Send a note to Adam Schiff.  Should be looked into.

[Jon Wiggett]

And now the Scottish Greens are claiming that Trump may have financed his Scottish and Irish golf resorts through money laundering  It will be interesting to see if the Scottish Government decide to investigate this claim.

[Bernie Bell]

I don't know what I don't know about Scottish politics or the Coul permission process, but if I form a hypothesis (and it is just a guess) that there is some parliamentary reason the SNP are forced to tolerate and even mollify these fringe elements, the Coul "calling in" and reversal process makes more sense to me. 

[Jon Wiggett]

I don't know what I don't know about Scottish politics or the Coul permission process, but if I form a hypothesis (and it is just a guess) that there is some parliamentary reason the SNP are forced to tolerate and even mollify these fringe elements, the Coul "calling in" and reversal process makes more sense to me.

Bernie,


the SNP are a minority government who are beholden to the Green Party to get most things passed. As such they are more than happy to do the Greens bidding in matters which they have no real interest in. As for this investigation into Trump I doubt the SNP will want it to progress anywhere for fear of what it might reveal.


Jon

[Niall C]

Did some quick googling...

Number of golf courses in Scotland?  ~550
Number of Caravan parks/camps in Scotland?  627

Yes, that's exactly what Scotland needs is more caravan and camp sites...that'll bring em in! 

Kalen


Not surprisingly, given the demographics of this discussion group, there is a tendency to look at things through the prism of the overseas/US golfer when by far the biggest percentage of visitor golfers are UK based. As a generalisation, US golfers spend a lot more per head on their trip than UK golfers which is not surprising given the cost/effort in getting here. I also suspect a high percentage of US visitors maybe visit only once or twice. Is it any wonder therefore that they try to fit in as much as possible, touring around playing all the top/best courses. That means their visit to a specific area tends to be fleeting.


It's not hard to imagine that a high percentage of customers for Embo would have been overseas players and therefore wouldn't have been hanging around too much. Given the prime justification for this development was the economic benefit to the area (and not just to the developers) then that benefit is limited.


The benefit of caravans/chalet accommodation is that it is affordable and encourages longer stays in the area and therefore more money spent in shops, restaurants, cafes etc. as well as (affordable) golf clubs. The increase of villa/house lets on AirBnB in recent years shows the demand. And the real beauty is that they don't "need" to be built on environmentally sensitive sites.


Niall

[Niall C]

Here's a suggestion for the Councillor, why not extend the caravan park and develop chalets and family accommodation at affordable rates. That way, rather than hit and run golfers rushing round the country to play Open rota type courses, you will get families and groups spending time in the community and spending money in shops, cafes, pubs etc. The beauty of this cunning plan is you don't need to bulldoze a SSSI/RAMSAR site to achieve that. But then I suspect the local Councillor is doing exactly what he's accusing the government of doing, and that is playing politics.

Niall

Are not many of these Caravan Parks on dunesland/coast as well? Do these get approved easier than a golf course?

Marcos


A lot of caravan sites are on the coast and a number of them are on links land. Most of them I'd suggest are fairly historical and probably developed on farm/links land. It's maybe a mute point as to whether they would get planning consent today for those specific sites although for a I suspect they would for probably most if not all.


The point being that I doubt the sites were that environmentally sensitive. The proposed development at Embo was knocked back, not because of the proposed use, but because of the environmental sensitivity of the site.


Niall

[Kalen Braley]

NIall,


I was only trying to ask the question, that if Scotland has enough golf courses, does it also mean they have enough caravan parks?Although I don't know if they are in high demand or sit half empty most of the time.


P.S.  Seems like they are a UK thing, as the US and Canada, covering a far larger swath of area only have 500 total KOA sites...

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,


in order for a course to be considered to be a 'true' links it must have a caravan park bordering it. This is what makes this decision all the more bizarre and unexpected after the developer went to such trouble to ensure using an existing caravan park rather than imposing a new one on to the foreshore.


It is why Balmedie or Ardfin will never be considered as proper links experiences. In fact it is probably the biggest factor preventing Bandon from offering a true links experience. You just can't properly appreciate links golf if you don't appreciate a good caravan park.


Jon

[Ken Moum]

NIall,


I was only trying to ask the question, that if Scotland has enough golf courses, does it also mean they have enough caravan parks?Although I don't know if they are in high demand or sit half empty most of the time.


P.S.  Seems like they are a UK thing, as the US and Canada, covering a far larger swath of area only have 500 total KOA sites...

I think that number is a bit misleading, as KOA parks are a pretty limited subset of places people "vacation" in housing that is either mobile or semi-mobile.


I've been to a number of the caravan parks that are in the area of links golf courses because they are just about the only place in Scotland where you can reliably find coin-operated laundry facilities. FWIW, all of the ones I've been in are filled to capacity during the busy season. I've also asked about renting one of these places for a golf trip and found that B&B lodging was a much better deal for us.


In addition, my wife and I live full-time in a 40-foot motor home, so I have been to more than a handful of KOA parks, and other similar parks that aren't affiliated with KOA and I can tell you without reservation that Scottish caravan parks do not resemble a KOA.


What they do resemble is the place in Mesa, AZ, where my wife and I are parked right now.  It's an Arizona RV resort that has most sites occupied by what we call "park models."  They arrive on wheels, but they are installed like the mobile homes in a typical mobile home park.  Likewise, the majority of caravan parks I've visited are full of more-or-less permanently installed lodging that is more like a mobile home than a caravan (what we call RVs).


For what it's worth, the "resort" I am in has 1,700 spaces, and within 2-3 miles there are roughly a dozen similar parks ranging in size from 200 sites to 2,000 sites. The city of Mesa has almost 40 such parks.


So the question you asked about whether Scotland has enough caravan parks is difficult to answer.

[Niall C]

To be clear I'm not suggesting a caravan park or such like on Embo. That land should be left well alone but what I was responding to was the Councillors request for alternative ideas to a golf course development that would be economically beneficial.


Ken/Kalen,


No idea what a KOA park is but in Scotland/UK caravan parks tend to be split between sites for touring caravans and motor homes and sites for static caravans which was more what I was referring to. The static caravans tend to be owned and site leased but there has also been a move towards more being available to rent and I see things going that way more in the future.


Niall

[Bernie Bell]

Strong words.


http://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/local/20200302_fsga/hopkins_col.html?utm_source=florida&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dm-030220

[Thomas Dai]

Caravans in the north of Scotland! Hardy folk indeed. Reminds me of the Billy Connolly gag about Scotland having only two seasons .... July and winter. Thank God for the effects of the gulf stream.

Atb

[David Harshbarger]

Caravans in the north of Scotland! Hardy folk indeed. Reminds me of the Billy Connolly gag about Scotland having only two seasons .... July and winter. Thank God for the effects of the gulf stream.

Atb

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/gulf-stream-slowing-down-is-bad-news-for-ireland-1.3476747


Soon July and Winter may be more true than you wish.

[MClutterbuck]

IF COULS brought more people to Scotland then I would agree it is good.


The Golf tourist market in Scotland is primarily driven to a few destination areas. The Dornoch area is certainly not in the top 2 and probably just outside fifth.


The Americans come to Fife, East Lothians, Ayrshire on their first three goes.


The amount that may go very North is much slimmer and they tend to want old not new.


Overall I don't see new business. Anything generated would be theft from another zone.


With the current situation in the UK of over-supply I am more tended to agree with the planning decision on economic grounds.


Just my opinion....

If you think SCO does not complete with other countries, you are wrong. I am talking just one group, but this decision just changed our planning in favor of a different country. And yes, we have a 2021, 2023, 2025 plan in place. 2023 just changed.

So you cancel your plans in favour of golfing in Scotland because there will be no Couls golf course really so you will miss Dornoch, Brora, Cruden, Boat, Castle Stuart, plus a host of other good courses there won't be much of a following on that one.

Played them all. Excellent courses. Will go back some day. Priority will be given to courses outside Scotland we have not played.

[MClutterbuck]

Here's a suggestion for the Councillor, why not extend the caravan park and develop chalets and family accommodation at affordable rates. That way, rather than hit and run golfers rushing round the country to play Open rota type courses, you will get families and groups spending time in the community and spending money in shops, cafes, pubs etc. The beauty of this cunning plan is you don't need to bulldoze a SSSI/RAMSAR site to achieve that. But then I suspect the local Councillor is doing exactly what he's accusing the government of doing, and that is playing politics.

Niall

Are not many of these Caravan Parks on dunesland/coast as well? Do these get approved easier than a golf course?

Marcos


A lot of caravan sites are on the coast and a number of them are on links land. Most of them I'd suggest are fairly historical and probably developed on farm/links land. It's maybe a mute point as to whether they would get planning consent today for those specific sites although for a I suspect they would for probably most if not all.


The point being that I doubt the sites were that environmentally sensitive. The proposed development at Embo was knocked back, not because of the proposed use, but because of the environmental sensitivity of the site.


Niall

Niall, I dont have specific proof for Scotland, but I am pretty sure many sit on sites that are as environmentally sensitive as Coul Links. But because the proposed use is caravan parks or low cost housing, then nobody sets out to find the environmental sensitivity.


The government does not, housing is votes. The greens do not, low cost housing is also close to their hearts. So the area is not sensitive because there is no grass roots effort to look for the sensitivity.


I have no doubt as well that several courses would get permission denied to extend a couple of holes into the areas where caravan parks exist, if these did not exist.


I am also pretty sure that had Mike Keiser never proposed building on this area, cattle would have continued to destroy it in a more severe manner than the golf course, without any green party/politician saying much.