[David Jones]

Makes me wonder as to the way to develop future links courses in Scotland and the rest of GB&I.
Faux links?
Buy-out an existing lessor links course where the members would welcome the money and then re-develop it?
Atb

I think we will see the latter happening in the years ahead. Possibly even members being bought out totally, courses largely obliterated and the land used as a canvas. Maybe that’s an extreme but it’s a possibility

[Ally Mcintosh]

Makes me wonder as to the way to develop future links courses in Scotland and the rest of GB&I.
Faux links?
Buy-out an existing lessor links course where the members would welcome the money and then re-develop it?
Atb

I think we will see the latter happening in the years ahead. Possibly even members being bought out totally, courses largely obliterated and the land used as a canvas. Maybe that’s an extreme but it’s a possibility

Well in theory this is exactly what is happening at St.Patricks though the courses before were so minimal, I consider this a completely (and perhaps the last) new site.


Narin & Portnoo is the closest current example of the total obliteration of an existing course. Although much of the general routing remains.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,


my comment about environmental standards becoming harder are not to do with this application but with the fact that the UK is leaving the EU. Where as the EU is tied to the current system of payments to farmers based on land owned the UK is almost certainly going to abandon this system in favour of payments for certain types of land managements.


A good example would be management of waterways and rainwater flow management where farmers will be paid for introducing water retention measures. As such it might not be impossible to build new courses in dune systems but the challenge will be bigger.


Jon

[Ian Mackenzie]

Or, Was this just a mean reversion response to being “Trump-fooked” 10 years ago in Menie...?


Locals shot it down but Scottish govt approved it anyway.


Locals approved Coul now govt suddenly doesn’t want to look like a rubber stamp for US capital so they hit the flush button.


From what I hear this was a political decision not an economic or ecological one.  The Reporters essentially rejected the “Opposition’s” arguments but in the end used “uncertainty” as a reason for refusal.

This is from a resident of Embo and it summarizes it nicely:


“I have read one or two people saying they have won yesterday.
No one has won with this decision on Coul links, the losers are the next generation looking to gain employment, the people wanting to stay in the area but cannot due to lack of opportunities.
Never mind the benefits to the Highlands as a whole.

I 'remember the feeling in 2018 when over 100 members of our community came together in less than 24 hours notice when highland council approved the golf course. So special.

Coul links itself is being killed through invasive species, very soon there will be nothing left.

I look forward to hearing the plan from not coul and these other conservation groups about how they will maintain and look after coul. Encouraging tourism and employment opportunities, something that would have happened if the golf course had gone ahead.”

[Thomas Dai]

I wonder what use will be made of the land at Coul now from now on?
Sympathy to for the folks who have been working on the project in some capacity but who’s jobs are presumably now in jeopardy.

Atb

[Niall C]

Niall,


My definition has nothing to do with grazing but has all to do with whether the land has been turned in to arable, farming land via plough.


Dumbarnie, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart were all the latter.

Ally


My definition of links also has nothing to do with grazing either but the point I'm making is that links courses such as North Berwick, Troon, Carnoustie, Muirfield (the clue is in the name) and Turnberry were all basically fields for grazing. Dumbarnie too back in the day. And being fields there is a good chance that at some point they were tilled to try and produce a better grass crop for grazing.


So what makes them links isn't to do with how they are used and what the vegetation is on top, although the vegetation will obviously depend on the nature of the land, but is more to do with the nature of the soil and how they were formed.


My guess is that going forward there will be more Mach Dunes and Dumbarnies and what's more given that there is a move towards more "wilding" of farmland that you'd imagine if golf can prove it's environmental/ecological benefits in terms of bio-diversity then you'd imagine developers would be pushing at an open door.


Niall

[Niall C]

Or, Was this just a mean reversion response to being “Trump-fooked” 10 years ago in Menie...?


Locals shot it down but Scottish govt approved it anyway.

Ian


FWIW, in my view the decision at Govt level ie Alex Salmond, to approve the Balmedie development was a shocker and abuse of power. It made Scotland look like a third world country. Even though Salmond isn't around anymore (and in any case an extremely dodgy planning decision is the least of his problems right now) I still wouldn't trust this government to act in a responsible and proper manner. So yes, the fact that they have reached this decision probably does have a bit to do with the reaction to their previous approval of Balmedie as well as following their own planning policy.


Niall 

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


you are correct about the Balmedie decision. Can you imagine the outrage were the UK government doing such backroom deals. The whole reason for it being called in is because the SNP are beholden to the Green party in Scotland the same as Theresa May was to the DUP and look at how that was seen by the SNP. The whole thing stinks and I do wonder how much further it can be allowed to continue before there is lasting damage.


Jon

[Ian Mackenzie]

I wonder what use will be made of the land at Coul now from now on?
Sympathy to for the folks who have been working on the project in some capacity but who’s jobs are presumably now in jeopardy.

Atb

The family that owns it rents it to a very small farm operation and cattle graze the land to the west of the proposed course.
Otherwise, it's been unmanaged for years and parts are rotting away.


The developers pledged 50,000 pounds per year to maintain the wild areas of the property.
It remains unseen what the conservationists (who opposed the course so passionately) will do or not do.


My guess is that you will never see them again as they will be chasing the next trophy instead of actually preserving the environment.


The most immediate near-term consequence may be a postponement of the redevelopment and renovation of the largest hotel in town. I heard it was bought - on speculation - by a London-based investor who anticipated Coul's approval.


He was going to spend $5M+ on the hotel which has incredible bones, lies on the first fairway of RDGC yet has the smell of institutional obsolescence when you walk in.


How many jobs is that right there? I dont know....ask the f**king environmentalists who are safely hiding behind their keyboards in their kitchens sending congratulatory Facebook messages to each other.


It's not like golf is really a part of the Scottish economy or anything....

[Tim Gallant]

I wonder what use will be made of the land at Coul now from now on?
Sympathy to for the folks who have been working on the project in some capacity but who’s jobs are presumably now in jeopardy.

Atb

The family that owns it rents it to a very small farm operation and cattle graze the land to the west of the proposed course.
Otherwise, it's been unmanaged for years and parts are rotting away.


The developers pledged 50,000 pounds per year to maintain the wild areas of the property.
It remains unseen what the conservationists (who opposed the course so passionately) will do or not do.


My guess is that you will never see them again as they will be chasing the next trophy instead of actually preserving the environment.


The most immediate near-term consequence may be a postponement of the redevelopment and renovation of the largest hotel in town. I heard it was bought - on speculation - by a London-based investor who anticipated Coul's approval.


He was going to spend $5M+ on the hotel which has incredible bones, lies on the first fairway of RDGC yet has the smell of institutional obsolescence when you walk in.


How many jobs is that right there? I dont know....ask the f**king environmentalists who are safely hiding behind their keyboards in their kitchens sending congratulatory Facebook messages to each other.


It's not like golf is really a part of the Scottish economy or anything....

Ian,


I do feel for the locals, and the economic benefit certainly would have been significant.


I was personally rooting for the development, but I was having a conversation with another Ian from this board. I appreciate that during the proceedings, the opposition said they would likely invest more in the property, so we'll see if that happens. But assuming it doesn't, I think it's ok to let nature be nature, and let the site get on with being...nothing. Nature doesn't always need to have a purpose, and sometimes, it's good just to let nature take its course. Without getting too Lion King-esq, I would say that its the circle of life. Some things die, and others are reborn. And it's magical. Nature need not serve us. But we must conserve her.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,


My definition has nothing to do with grazing but has all to do with whether the land has been turned in to arable, farming land via plough.


Dumbarnie, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart were all the latter.

Ally


My definition of links also has nothing to do with grazing either but the point I'm making is that links courses such as North Berwick, Troon, Carnoustie, Muirfield (the clue is in the name) and Turnberry were all basically fields for grazing. Dumbarnie too back in the day. And being fields there is a good chance that at some point they were tilled to try and produce a better grass crop for grazing.


So what makes them links isn't to do with how they are used and what the vegetation is on top, although the vegetation will obviously depend on the nature of the land, but is more to do with the nature of the soil and how they were formed.


My guess is that going forward there will be more Mach Dunes and Dumbarnies and what's more given that there is a move towards more "wilding" of farmland that you'd imagine if golf can prove it's environmental/ecological benefits in terms of bio-diversity then you'd imagine developers would be pushing at an open door.


Niall

Ok point taken that some of our old links were used for different purposes before golf was played on them. But the difference is that undulations did not have to be changed in order to then play golf on them. Grazing was not plough in most cases. Mach Dunes is of this type - undulations created by nature. Therefore in golf terms, what I would classify virgin links land.


Kingsbarns and Dumbarnie were of a different type. Any semblance of links land was long time lost.

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure if this was addressed earlier in the thread...


Was there any consideration/due diligence on the type of projects Mike K has done in the past?  Seems like his past efforts have been thoughtful in getting something natural in the space, minimalizing the disturbance and structures, and overall being tasteful.  Or was it a case of pigeonholing him as another bloody yank type deal?

[Thomas Dai]

Usually the higher up the chain of command or democratic political structure an issue is passed for resolution the more likely the decision is likely to be ‘no’ or fudged and then probably only after a long period of procrastination.
Atb

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,


I’m not so sure the home of golf really needed this development on a macro level though? Surely what defines (or defined) the home of golf was simple, affordable golf for all at a local club. Scotland was perhaps the only country where golf was as much a game for the working class everyman as it was for the  middle classes and gentry. Coul Links had nothing to do with why “the home of golf” was named the home of golf... it would have been great to see though. I for one was interested to see what C&C would do with a virgin links site.

Am I the only who is bothered when some people think that they are qualified to deem others' "needs"?  I might understand this line of thinking if Coul Links was to be built of public land and the principals were seeking government incentives.  CL was to be on private property, a site which is degraded in many respects and declining due to neglect and the passage of time.  The funds for the project were coming from outside the area (American money does spend in Scotland, not?), normally a good thing given that investment capital is tight locally. 


As to what makes Scotland the home of golf, it is much more than the £180 green fee at TOC or the £200+ annual dues at Golspie and Brora.  The game remains largely affordable for the locals, but what really feeds the kitty are the many thousands of visitor rounds at the much higher rates.  For me, when I think of Scotland as the home of golf, it is a combination of many things: history, tradition, wide variety of courses, the uniqueness of the links, the people, how the game is played, even enduring the ever-changing weather.


We do seem to suffer on this site from poor memory or an inclination to rewrite history.   Trump Balmedie had wide local support but was turned down by a local government entity on the strength and activism of Martin Ford, the chairman of the relevant committee who cast the tie-breaking vote against the project.  The feds had every right to review the decision, and, in my opinion acted responsibly.


Jon W is incorrect in his assessment that the CL decision was consistent as the feds this time rejected strong local support including the government's.  In effect, in CL, the feds overruled local preferences wheres in Balmedie it prevented a small group of local government officials (8 to 7) from disenfranchising its constituents to the detriment not only of the local economy, but of the nation as well.


No doubt in my mind that the CL decision was influenced by the political fallout played out in the media over the Trump course.  Ian is on point on his comments.  The aging population in Dornoch will bear the consequences of political cowardice.  B & B owners who are seeking to sell and retire more peacefully will either have to hold on to their properties or incur a large discount.  Young people who might wish to remain in the village will have fewer opportunities.  As the diaspora to larger cities continues here like in many parts of Spain, much of the vitality will go with it.   A community of services-intensive retirees with a marked propensity toward thrift does not suggest a bright future.


Last but not least, that some of us think it is desirable for government to disallow the use of someone's property without compensation for the sake of doing nothing/let nature take its toll is discouraging.  How much of a leap is there for the same government to say to doctors: "you must provide x number of hours each month without pay to the local clinic as a means to retain your license"?  To golf operators: "you must provide x rounds free to 'needy' golfers".   To local home owners: "you must provide your spare room rent free to a 'needy' tenant".  Your straight A son or daughter: "you must give 15 points on your test score to a kid with a D or C average".


Me, I hope that the CL property owners import a very large herd of goats to the site.  Whatever little "scientific interest" exits there would be enhanced as a result. 


And while on the topic of shooting oneself in the foot, how about the Highland Council withdrawing the consultation on the proposed RDGC clubhouse over a public complaint on the use of the term "fair market rent"?  Does Pogo's "we have met the enemy and he is us" apply?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Lou,


I guess my only point - confirmed somewhat by your lost post - is that what makes Scotland known as “The Home of Golf” is defined slightly differently by you than it is by me.


Coul Links would have strengthened your position whilst detracting from mine.


That’s not to say that I didn’t want it to happen.

[Jon Wiggett]

Lou,


I am afraid your assertions in paragraph 4 are so far off the mark it is well..... The overwhelming majority of the population in the area of Balmedie(as well as the rest of Scotland) was against this project. And where is the benefit to the local and national economy?


Jon

[Lou_Duran]

Jon,


Back when Balmedie was being debated, I dined every night for a week on a ship with two ladies from Aberdeenshire, both former bowlers on the national team, one an avid golfer.  The golfer, with a son working in the oil business, was strongly for the development, the other not so much, but both thought it was important for the area as the North Sea oil depletion was already costing jobs.  They noted widespread local support and there is at least one very long thread on this site referencing articles and polls confirming this opinion.


BTW, I think Trump Balmedie is a great links and an outstanding walk.  The folks there were outstanding.  I even had a nice conversation with a local octogenarian who walked the site regularly long before the course was built.  He said he hadn't played golf in years, but enjoyed his afternoon tea and biscuits in the clubhouse.  He also said that most of the hoopla was bull and that the site has been greatly improved as a result of the course being built.  I look forward to maybe returning this summer.

[Sean_A]

We do seem to suffer on this site from poor memory or an inclination to rewrite history.   Trump Balmedie had wide local support but was turned down by a local government entity on the strength and activism of Martin Ford, the chairman of the relevant committee who cast the tie-breaking vote against the project.  The feds had every right to review the decision, and, in my opinion acted responsibly.

The above is a very harsh indictment of a freely elected Council, part of whose function is to act as the Local Planning Authority. That is grass roots democracy at its core and all was above board.  Polls?  Can you cite the polls, the methods and their accuracy?  You aren't often a take it face value sort of chap.  I have zero faith in so called local polls and you should as well. The mistake in this case was for the government to over-ride local government, especially when it was a possibility that certain politcians were in cahoots with Trump.  The result may be a great course, but miles short of what was promised in exchange for the sacrifice of a very unusual bit of land.  Honestly, if the region is depending on the mostly small wage and small number of jobs resulting from the Trump deal than the shit has already hit the fan. Golf is a wonderful game, but it isn't the employment saviour of Scotland.

As for Coul Links, again, I think the decision should have been left in the hands of local government.  Although, imo the site in question isn't nearly as important as Balmeadie. 

Ciao

[Joel_Stewart]

Was there any consideration/due diligence on the type of projects Mike K has done in the past?  Seems like his past efforts have been thoughtful in getting something natural in the space, minimalizing the disturbance and structures, and overall being tasteful.  Or was it a case of pigeonholing him as another bloody yank type deal?

That's a good question. Mikes partner in this deal was Todd Warnock and he did all the heavy lifting. I believe he tried to differentiate Keiser from Trump and early on they made some concessions and they always tried to be good neighbors.


I'm sure Mike is disappointed but he's probably more disappointed for Todd and Bill Coore who really wanted this project.

[Lou_Duran]

Not harsh at all Sean.  Though I tend to believe that most political decisions should be made at the level closest to the matter, there is little reason to think that the local politicians are better angels than those at state and federal levels.  I do have a pretty good memory about these things and unless Ran has killed the long thread, the information is there for someone with better search skills than mine to pull out.  What you state about polls has merit.  However, tied together with other information and common sense, and guarding against selective perception and confirmation bias, polls can be useful.


I suppose that the best poll was the 7-7 stalemate at the local authority broken by its chair, a highly partisan Green Party politician.  We had this battle before, as I recall.  I think it is necessary to have an appeal process, especially when the issue is so divisive on a political level.  This was not the case with Coul Links and I think that the feds, in light of all the media crap they got on Trump, made what we know in sports as a make-up call. 



As to what was sacrificed at Balmedie, we could not disagree more.  Like Coul Links, the site had been degraded through years of misuse and as hunting grounds.  The superintendent noted the thousands of shotgun shells laying around and areas torn up ostensibly by other recreational uses, vehicular as I recall.


I do have a question for you, if it is so imperative that the dunes be allowed to be moved by the wind, a central issue at Balmedie if memory serves, how do we rationalize the herculean efforts to stabilize the shoreline from erosion by similar forces of nature?  I gaze at those "destroyed" dunes framing Trump's fairways and see glorious beauty.  Not so much looking south where the second course will be built.   


 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hyperbole now, Lou,


Those glorious dunes where the second Trump course will be built are a fantastic mix of blow-outs, dune slacks and different dune species.


They are a playground for kids and bathers alike. I’d hate to see them turned in to a golf course.


Kalen, Joel: I can be disappointed for Todd Warnock who obviously had his heart set on this. But it’s a stretch to be too disappointed for either Mike Keiser or Bill Coore, both of whom have developed plenty of golf courses on much of the greatest land on earth.

[Mark Pearce]

Lou,


Your concerns for the economy of Dornoch seem unfounded.  I can't be too disappointed for the London property developer whose investment in the hotel now looks like a mistake.  But those bed and breakfasts do great business off the back of the existing supply of golf in the area an will continue to do so.. maybe there'll be fewer super rich American golf tourists than might have been seen but I wonder if even that is true.  RDGC has done well as a golf tourist magnet for the last 20 years, I see no reason to believe it no longer will.


FWIW, I can't recall a single Fife resident talking about the economic impact on the area of Dumbarnie.


An conversations with a couple of wealthy Aberdonian women on a boat is not a representative opinion poll.  We are all guilty of believing personal anecdotes to be more important reflections of reality than they are.

[Jon Wiggett]

Lou,


my experience from talking to many people whilst in the area around Aberdeen and those I met from the area elsewhere in Scotland was the vast majority did not want this development at Balmedie. If I were making a judgement as to the popularity of the project I would want to base it on a broader poll than a couple of ladies on a cruise. What is also of note is that the man who was most against the project was voted Scot of the year by his fellow countryfolk.


In Scotland it is not all about the money.


Mark,


I think the hope with Coul Links was it would encourage more people to stay in Dornoch and the area around it rather than in Inverness and doing the day trip. At the moment apart from at the club not too much spend occurs in the area.Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Here is something else to consider:


If Coul links had been built and sucessfull it would only have taken away traffic and revenue from other areas.


Only so much in the pot and as another thread say's Scotland is sinking fast. It might be the multitude of not so good courses going under but it would raise the bar.


Scotland does not really need any new golf courses.

[Sean_A]

Not harsh at all Sean.  Though I tend to believe that most political decisions should be made at the level closest to the matter, there is little reason to think that the local politicians are better angels than those at state and federal levels.  I do have a pretty good memory about these things and unless Ran has killed the long thread, the information is there for someone with better search skills than mine to pull out.  What you state about polls has merit.  However, tied together with other information and common sense, and guarding against selective perception and confirmation bias, polls can be useful.

I suppose that the best poll was the 7-7 stalemate at the local authority broken by its chair, a highly partisan Green Party politician.  We had this battle before, as I recall.  I think it is necessary to have an appeal process, especially when the issue is so divisive on a political level.  This was not the case with Coul Links and I think that the feds, in light of all the media crap they got on Trump, made what we know in sports as a make-up call. 


As to what was sacrificed at Balmedie, we could not disagree more.  Like Coul Links, the site had been degraded through years of misuse and as hunting grounds.  The superintendent noted the thousands of shotgun shells laying around and areas torn up ostensibly by other recreational uses, vehicular as I recall.

I do have a question for you, if it is so imperative that the dunes be allowed to be moved by the wind, a central issue at Balmedie if memory serves, how do we rationalize the herculean efforts to stabilize the shoreline from erosion by similar forces of nature?  I gaze at those "destroyed" dunes framing Trump's fairways and see glorious beauty.  Not so much looking south where the second course will be built.   

Sweet Lou

Polls for local issues in the case of Trump is really about pr for his cause . Trump is not to be trusted with any such type of info because he make up the results anyway. Polls in these sorts of situations are a joke. Hell, they are often not great when run by big firms for national issues.

We can agree to disagree about the value of Balmedie as a piece of land.

I disagree with party politics at local level, but that's life. That said, there was a presumption against development for the Balmedie property. If anything, the Chair was voting for what was enacted by special protection of the land. His vote made complete sense in terms of planning regulations and the development plan which certainly didn't call for housing in such an innapropriate location. In retrospect, the Chair was imo absolutely correct because the economic case for devopment hasn't been half of what was promised. But then a local economist made that case at the time. Plus, it is traditional for a casting vote to be on the side of status quo. I know the Chairmen I have dealt with have always voted this way. Essentially the belief is the case has not been made for change if its a tie.

BTW... I think Martin Ford was a Lib Dem. Hate the Green Peace Party much?

Ciao

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