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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #900 on: April 01, 2019, 04:36:44 AM »
Given that I’m typing this before 12:00 hrs on 1st April perhaps rock-paper-scissors would be an appropriate way to resolve this matter?
Atb

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #901 on: April 01, 2019, 09:03:45 AM »
OMG, somebody kill this thread!  36 pages of squabbling!
In a mostly very civilised way.  If you don't like it, no-one's forcing you to read it.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #902 on: April 01, 2019, 12:20:46 PM »
OMG, somebody kill this thread!  36 pages of squabbling!
In a mostly very civilised way.  If you don't like it, no-one's forcing you to read it.


+1


With over 50,000 views, it has been read more times than the next 50 threads combined.
THAT says something...and it is more than squabbling.


Unique prism into the embryonic machinations that go into the birth of a development.
With several key GCA topics thrown in all at once: Scotland, Mike Keiser, Coore/Crenshaw, the environment and Dornoch. - all topics of multiple threads themselves.


I get that some may find it tedious in the same way that I find many "OT" threads inane and replete with senseless drivel.


Opining simply that you do not like something is the antithesis of "value-add"...;-)


Imagine some here reading threads and posting",
"I dont like this thread, It should be deleted according to me."[size=78%]....[/size] ;D


Wouldn't it be great if life worked that way..?.. ;)


Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #904 on: January 10, 2020, 01:43:50 PM »
Just a rehash of previous videos. It seems the Scottish Executive are just sitting on this decision.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #905 on: January 22, 2020, 03:53:46 PM »
Seems this slipped below the radar:


https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/decision-on-proposed-new-golf-course-at-coul-links-due-soon-187128/


No decision, but it appears that a recommendation has been provided, and now it's up to the Ministers to give their verdict. I don't know how long this might take, but the paper seemed to think a decision was near.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #906 on: January 22, 2020, 04:34:32 PM »
Seems this slipped below the radar:


https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/decision-on-proposed-new-golf-course-at-coul-links-due-soon-187128/


No decision, but it appears that a recommendation has been provided, and now it's up to the Ministers to give their verdict. I don't know how long this might take, but the paper seemed to think a decision was near.


And that headline about an "imminent" decision was posted on November 28 of last year.


The definition of "imminent" is really taking a beating lately.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #907 on: January 22, 2020, 07:29:00 PM »
If "imminent" is used in matters involving government and politics, then it can mean anything.  I've been asking around for news without success.  The word when I was in the area late this past summer was that the decision would be forthcoming by the end of the year- "imminent" in this context- and the expectation was that it would get the green light.  I was near Todd Warnock a couple of times and he seemed to be in fine spirits.


More recently, I've heard rumors from a couple of sources that "the bank" was becoming impatient.  Hard to say if this is more than  unfounded speculation or that the delay can be construed as a bad sign, but ......  I know that another C & C project was scuttled after a 10-year fight with CA interveners with no end in sight for a positive resolution.


During my last visit to Dornoch I spent several hours over three days walking the east (seaside) and west boundaries of the CL site, and diagonally across from west to east.  I don't know who produced the video linked by Tim, but they should receive an Academy Award for editing in the Fantasy category.


The site has some interesting minor dunes in the interior, but I didn't see any areas with sea views without bulldozing spaces on large high dunes along the beach (I am nearly sure that this won't happen) or raising some of the higher points considerably.  To the best of my knowledge, the design is more minimalist in style, though I have to believe that they will have to move some dirt around (I am not sure that it is all sand).


The property has been used for dumping, primarily dead trees and other vegetation, and has many areas that accumulate water.  I didn't see very much other debris, but reports are that it was used in the past for grazing and hunting- who knows what the vegetation might be hiding.


Though it is grown-in with invasive vegetation and small thickets, the only wildlife of note I witnessed was a small deer and a grouse.  The only people I saw around the property were a relative few on the beach, and an older couple walking on a path along the western boundary.  Perhaps I was there at the wrong time during three separate visits in different months, and a year apart.

It would be a shame for the area if the site is forced to languish in its current condition in perpetuity.  Seems like the idiom of looking at a gift horse in the mouth has an application here.




« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 07:31:46 PM by Lou_Duran »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #908 on: January 22, 2020, 08:13:23 PM »
...
The definition of "imminent" is really taking a beating lately.

LOL

Or, as some people write, "eminent."

 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #909 on: January 23, 2020, 07:28:53 AM »
Lou


https://www.dpea.scotland.gov.uk/CaseDetails.aspx?id=119883


Not sure the above link will work but it is basically the same link as on www.coullinksgolf.com. It has all the cut and thrust of the planning process with publication of the various submissions. If you spend a bit of time perusing the submissions you will first note the delay in the latter part of the process has been down almost entirely to the applicant who has repeatedly broken agreed deadlines by quite some margin. If the deadlines had been met the report very likely would have gone to the Ministers several months earlier than the end of November which is when it was sent.


If you also go through the submissions, assuming you have the time, you'll get a better idea of the environmental and ecological issues. Deer and grouse don't really feature from memory.




Niall

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #910 on: January 23, 2020, 03:58:59 PM »
Thanks Niall.  As you should be able to surmise by my presence here, I have all the time in the world.   So, I suppose I should do some digging instead of relying on information from folks who are closer to the matter and might have more riding on the decision than I do.  As I said, the impression given while I was in Dornoch this past September was that the final decision would come down by year-end and that it was expected to be favorable to the development of the course.  I would be surprised that an anxious applicant with a time sensitive project would be missing deadlines for reasons other than to address new demands being made.  But as you have pointed out on numerous occasions, I could be wrong.  ;)

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #911 on: February 21, 2020, 08:07:33 AM »
Looks like planning permission has been refused.  “Case closed” as it says on the Scottish Government website.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #912 on: February 21, 2020, 08:22:23 AM »
Yes, it has. A disgrace that Trump Aberdeen was permitted and this has been blocked. Scotland’s politicians should hang their heads in shame
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #913 on: February 21, 2020, 08:22:44 AM »
Looks like planning permission has been refused.  “Case closed” as it says on the Scottish Government website.


Yes - all over the news.


No doubt this development was hugely damaged by the Trump affair. I’m sure it would have had a much lighter touch.


I’d say that could be the death knell for any future permission for a brand new course on true links land. St.Patricks will be the closest thing we get. It’s as good as new / untouched. Any other developments will be more adjoining sand dunes, such as Dumbarnie.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 09:14:03 AM by David_Tepper »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #915 on: February 21, 2020, 10:21:05 AM »
Yes, it has. A disgrace that Trump Aberdeen was permitted and this has been blocked. Scotland’s politicians should hang their heads in shame

Adam

If your comment is on the inconsistency then I agree.

Niall

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #916 on: February 21, 2020, 11:42:42 AM »

I disagree Adam. The Scottish Ministers have been entirely consistent in totally ignoring the locals in both cases which is rich coming from a party that continually moans, whines and whinges about how they are ignored by the UK government. Of course it also helped Trump that the Scottish Executive were having secret backroom meetings with Trump's representatives whilst at the same time been on the phone about the application.


I am very surprised though and saddened but still it is not the Central Belt so of no interest.  ;)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #917 on: February 22, 2020, 05:49:07 AM »
Looks like planning permission has been refused.  “Case closed” as it says on the Scottish Government website.


Yes - all over the news.


No doubt this development was hugely damaged by the Trump affair. I’m sure it would have had a much lighter touch.


I’d say that could be the death knell for any future permission for a brand new course on true links land. St.Patricks will be the closest thing we get. It’s as good as new / untouched. Any other developments will be more adjoining sand dunes, such as Dumbarnie.


Ally


Well, I will say this, when most of this board were cheering on Trump in his efforts to develop Balmedie I made the point how his development was going to make it harder for everyone else. Mind you Mr Keiser and Mr Warnock didn't help themselves by mimicking a lot of Trump's methods and most importantly by their choice of site.


It is also over 20 years since Michael Bonnallack made his prediction that there would be no more links courses built and he has been proved wrong. I'm sure there will be more in the future but I doubt they will be achieved by the approach taken by Trump and to a large extent by the Embo developers. 


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #918 on: February 22, 2020, 06:21:50 AM »
Looks like planning permission has been refused.  “Case closed” as it says on the Scottish Government website.


Yes - all over the news.


No doubt this development was hugely damaged by the Trump affair. I’m sure it would have had a much lighter touch.


I’d say that could be the death knell for any future permission for a brand new course on true links land. St.Patricks will be the closest thing we get. It’s as good as new / untouched. Any other developments will be more adjoining sand dunes, such as Dumbarnie.


Ally


Well, I will say this, when most of this board were cheering on Trump in his efforts to develop Balmedie I made the point how his development was going to make it harder for everyone else. Mind you Mr Keiser and Mr Warnock didn't help themselves by mimicking a lot of Trump's methods and most importantly by their choice of site.


It is also over 20 years since Michael Bonnallack made his prediction that there would be no more links courses built and he has been proved wrong. I'm sure there will be more in the future but I doubt they will be achieved by the approach taken by Trump and to a large extent by the Embo developers. 


Niall


Niall,


When talking about pure links land, I’m not sure he was too far off the mark.


Only ones I can think of are Sandy Hills, Mach Dunes and Askernish. The last one got by as it was on the site of a former course. The first one snuck-in through Ruddy’s determination as EU legislation was still being finalised.


Mach Dunes is the best example I can think of but it’s getting harder and harder.


Of course, now the UK is no longer tied by EU legislation, it becomes more possible, if unlikely.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #919 on: February 22, 2020, 12:34:42 PM »

Ally,


Contrary to popular belief it is likely that environmental laws will be tougher in the UK in the future than in the EU.


For anyone interested here is a link to the documents on the decision.


https://www.gov.scot/publications/planning-decision-na-hld-086/




Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #920 on: February 22, 2020, 08:30:53 PM »
I find it highly ironic that the home of golf has become so unfriendly to the game.  The Coul Links project could have been a home run.  Oh well, the visitors will just have to be happy with their round at Royal Dornoch before heading south.  I bet that there will be some great real estate deals in town.






       

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #921 on: February 23, 2020, 05:17:31 AM »
Lou,


I’m not so sure the home of golf really needed this development on a macro level though? Surely what defines (or defined) the home of golf was simple, affordable golf for all at a local club. Scotland was perhaps the only country where golf was as much a game for the working class everyman as it was for the  middle classes and gentry. Coul Links had nothing to do with why “the home of golf” was named the home of golf... it would have been great to see though. I for one was interested to see what C&C would do with a virgin links site.


Jon,


Thanks for that link. I didn’t see anything referencing that UK planning would become harder than EU legislation for golf courses in protected environments. But I maybe didn’t look deep enough? Either way, if that is in fact true then it will almost definitely be the death knell for any new links development.




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #922 on: February 23, 2020, 06:25:29 AM »
Makes me wonder as to the way to develop future links courses in Scotland and the rest of GB&I.
Faux links?
Buy-out an existing lessor links course where the members would welcome the money and then re-develop it?
Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #923 on: February 23, 2020, 07:43:24 AM »
Ally/David,


I tend to think the differential between "pristine links" and what is over the fence isn't as big as it is portrayed. It is really down to how it was used. When you think of most of the early links courses in the UK they were actively used for grazing before and after the courses were laid out. I'm not sure they were any different in that respect to Dumbarnie which was a golf course back in the day as well. Even Mach Dunes had cattle on it before it became a golf course.


Lou,


I think you are wrong to base a country's attitude to golf based on one planning application. Indeed I would think the planning regime in this country probably makes it much harder to redevelop a golf course for some other use than it would be in the US or many other countries. Golf courses are valued both for themselves and as an important green space. That doesn't mean you should get consent to bulldoze an important environmental site though.


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #924 on: February 23, 2020, 07:54:16 AM »
Niall,


My definition has nothing to do with grazing but has all to do with whether the land has been turned in to arable, farming land via plough.


Dumbarnie, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart were all the latter.