Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)

[Ian Mackenzie]

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[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian
 
I appreciate you’re a stooge for the developer but perhaps you could give some thought before you spout such shite.
 
Unlike the US we don’t have a gun culture over here. Anyone wandering about discharging a loaded firearm in an area open and relatively accessible to the public is likely to get their collar felt fairly quickly, particularly if they don’t have the consent of the landowner.
 
Niall

Niall -


So, what say you....is Embo resident Catrionna Grigg also a stooge for the developers?
With almost 90% local approval, she makes a case for why it matters to the LOCALs:


http://www.thenational.scot/news/15684904.Letters__A_new_links_course_will_benefit_the_local_community_in_Embo/

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian, John,


I am not sure how it can be denied that the US has a gun culture or why you both have gotten so upset by it been mentioned.


Ian,


I do not think you are a stooge for the developer or that you have any connection professionally with the project. However, there are no hunters descending on the site but rather it is the landowner who has the right to shoot ducks through the winter which he does. What is so galling about the attitude some of the eco groups (though not NSH) is the fact that they have never shown any interest in the SSSI site here nor objected to it being slowly ruined by mismanagement nor have they ever offered any maintenance plan or money. The RSPB is basically a rich, political lobbying group who object to almost anything.


Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Niall, old friend.


Ian is generally right and I am not a stooge for anybody, particularly Todd Warnock.


Rich

[John Connolly]

Ian, John,


I am not sure how it can be denied that the US has a gun culture or why you both have gotten so upset by it been mentioned.


Ian,


I do not think you are a stooge for the developer or that you have any connection professionally with the project. However, there are no hunters descending on the site but rather it is the landowner who has the right to shoot ducks through the winter which he does. What is so galling about the attitude some of the eco groups (though not NSH) is the fact that they have never shown any interest in the SSSI site here nor objected to it being slowly ruined by mismanagement nor have they ever offered any maintenance plan or money. The RSPB is basically a rich, political lobbying group who object to almost anything.


Jon

Jon,

This specific cultural characterization is not even the point. That anyone would cast such a generalization about the nature of a nation's people is at best dim-witted and at worst imbecilic. That's a fairly narrow window to work within.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian, John,


I am not sure how it can be denied that the US has a gun culture or why you both have gotten so upset by it been mentioned.

Jon

Jon, "we" are not upset for when facts and context are presented accurately, they stand on their own.


Shooting birds in Embo and gun culture in the US are two asynchronous, disconnected pieces of info that were very poorly correlated by Niall - thus the analogy lacked any relevant context whatsoever. Do you see the difference?


Citing cultural cliches in a discussion is a piss-poor lazy substitute for real discourse and original thought.


It's like "us" saying that of course Niall does not want the golf course because all Scots are stubborn and cheap....;-)


Dr. John C. and I are thoroughly horrified by the gun culture in the US. But, then again, we are "Northern elites"....;-)
The US is a nation founded on insurrection and violence and....guess what....it started with Europeans....

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian, John,


maybe it is one of the problems of the written word in that unlike spoken communications there is no tone to give context to comments. I certainly did not read Niall's post comment about 'gun culture' as been a general slur on all Americans nor a cliches. That you both seem to be so touchy on the point shows that you are anti guns and a credit to you both. I suspect that Ian's ill informed 'hunters descending' comment might be in the same vain.


Jon.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian, John,


maybe it is one of the problems of the written word in that unlike spoken communications there is no tone to give context to comments. I certainly did not read Niall's post comment about 'gun culture' as been a general slur on all Americans nor a cliches. That you both seem to be so touchy on the point shows that you are anti guns and a credit to you both. I suspect that Ian's ill informed 'hunters descending' comment might be in the same vain.


Jon.

Jon, it's my understanding that, once a year, hunters may venture on property at Coul Links and "trim the flock" with firearms. I read that (yesterday, in fact) and hence cited it. My use of context was also poor as I was using that as an analogy to show how environmentalists, who "cut and paste" their outrage to fit their own narratives without any active involvement in a solution, can reek of hypocrisy.


If "you" were so concerned about the birds, why aren't "you" showing up to protect them? Oh, that's right, "you" dont live there....;-)....you live in Glasgow or London....or Chicago...;-)

[Ian Mackenzie]

"There is shooting of wild fowl in the key winter breeding period – why have RSPB and others allowed this to carry on for years?"

This is where I read it:

http://www.northern-times.co.uk/Opinion/Letters/Can-we-not-have-a-sensible-debate-about-Coul-Links-golf-23112017.htm

It was in an article already posted for everyone to read.

[John Connolly]

Ian, John,


maybe it is one of the problems of the written word in that unlike spoken communications there is no tone to give context to comments. I certainly did not read Niall's post comment about 'gun culture' as been a general slur on all Americans nor a cliches. That you both seem to be so touchy on the point shows that you are anti guns and a credit to you both. I suspect that Ian's ill informed 'hunters descending' comment might be in the same vain.


Jon.

Jon,

You not reading Niall's comment as a "general slur" speaks not to me being "touchy" but to your willingness to characterize it as you see fit. You have no clue whatsoever as to my position on guns and for you to bring it up again only reinforces that you've misrepresented my objection in the first place.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian,


I as far I am aware from reading the various reports, planning permission documents and talking with a few of the locals there are no hunters 'venturing' on the property but rather it is the landowner himself using his right to hunt. The reason the RSPB and others are doing nothing about it is because they have no right to do so.


'If "you" were so concerned about the birds, why aren't "you" showing up to protect them? Oh, that's right, "you" dont live there....;-)....you live in Glasgow or London....or Chicago...;-)'

Not sure what you mean by the above quote. Probably to dim


Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian, John,


maybe it is one of the problems of the written word in that unlike spoken communications there is no tone to give context to comments. I certainly did not read Niall's post comment about 'gun culture' as been a general slur on all Americans nor a cliches. That you both seem to be so touchy on the point shows that you are anti guns and a credit to you both. I suspect that Ian's ill informed 'hunters descending' comment might be in the same vain.


Jon.

Jon,

You not reading Niall's comment as a "general slur" speaks not to me being "touchy" but to your willingness to characterize it as you see fit. You have no clue whatsoever as to my position on guns and for you to bring it up again only reinforces that you've misrepresented my objection in the first place.

John,


firstly, I was neither representing or MISrepresenting your objections but just saying how I saw what Niall had read. I based my comment of your position on guns on Ian's comment 'Dr. John C. and I are thoroughly horrified by the gun culture in the US' but maybe I misunderstood that too?


I hope you find comfort in your certainty.

[Marty Bonnar]

Just to help clarify for everybody. That letter in the NT contains at least some "fake news".
For example, Winter is most assuredly NOT "the key breeding season" for Scottish waterfowl.
That is either a typo, a lie or a mistake.
In fact, wildfowling takes place all over this country throughout the winter (roughly September to January). The close season to allow breeding covers those months when birds are able to rear young - i.e., mostly the spring and summer.
Cheers,
F.

[Niall C]

John C.
 
No attempt to characterize an entire nation of people on my part. What I said was that the US had a gun culture which seems to me to be a pretty self-evident fact judging from your constitutional right to bear arms, the routine arming of your law enforcement, the general level of gun crime, as well as that of gun ownership and of course the prevalence of gun use in US popular culture as evidenced by your TV and films. Admittedly my viewpoint might be coloured by the fact that on one of my few visits to the States I was held up at gunpoint.
 
However the fact that you and Ian are against gun use in some shape or form, which is what you both seem to be saying, while commendable (IMO) is neither here nor there in terms of whether there is a gun culture in the US. That appears pretty self-evident as I said.
 
However I suspect the real reason my post has caused such a reaction from most and in particular Ian is my reference to him being a stooge for the developer. While my language could have been more temperate there are times when you are just as well calling a spade a spade.
 
Niall

[Niall C]

Niall, old friend.


Ian is generally right and I am not a stooge for anybody, particularly Todd Warnock.


Rich

Rich


I never thought you were. I greatly value your opinion and insights even if at times I don't agree with you. They are always well reasoned and worth listening to.


All the best


Niall

[Niall C]

Fellow GCAers - yes, I do know the developers personally yet I have ZERO involvement in the project. In a private email exchange with Niall, I told him that several weeks ago after he publicly asked me. He continued to ask me questions over private emails and I politely indulged him.

I asked for his confidence and discretion which he gave readily. For that courtesy, in Niall's mind, I am now a "stooge".

Others, please use your own caution. A "PM" with Niall should be accompanied by a signed Non-Disclosure Agreement.

Ian


I can't recall asking you on this forum whether you had a personal interest in the development but happy to accept I did. I strongly suspect however it was you who contacted me off-line and continued to do so. Certainly it was you who initiated the recent emails and I merely responded to some of them. I recall you wanted to keep the content of the exchange private and I believe that is what I've done unless you can show me otherwise ? I'm not sure I've even referenced our offline exchanges but perhaps again you could advise.


In my time on GCA there has been a number of personal feuds between others which have been unseemly and I suspect most could readily do without them. I really am not interested in ending up in one of those situations. However in expressing my opinion you have taken offence and while I can see why I really don't feel I want to or need to withdraw or apologise for that remark. What I will undertake to do is not add to it.


Niall

[Ian Mackenzie]

Lastly:

I called you a piece of shite it is true and I am sorry for it.

Punctuate it yourself....;-)

[Simon Holt]

Its good to have your inside scoop, much as it is Niall's knowledge on the planning governance in Scotland given his background.  I'm guessing I'm not the only one who wants the he said/she said to stay offline. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

.

[John Connolly]

While my language could have been more temperate there are times when you are just as well calling a spade a spade.
 

Couldn't agree with you more.

[David_Tepper]

The battle rages on. I was half expecting this gca.com thread to be cited when I read the headline for this article.

http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Battle-to-prevent-Coul-Links-golf-course-development-going-ahead-goes-viral-30112017.htm

[Thomas Dai]

An interesting scenario was put forward during a recent general golf discussion which involved amongst other things talking about this project. I don’t know the answer. Anyone posting herein care to put forward their thoughts? Scottish regulations remember.


What would happen, indeed would anything happen at all, if the current owner just went around his/her land with a club hitting a few balls? Nothing? Something....if so what?
And then after a while he invites a couple of mates to join him...it’s his land.
And a while later a few more mates join in.
And after a while, maybe quite a while, a precedent is established....
And then.......
I’m sure you get the drift
Just curious.
Atb

[Niall C]

Dai


I think basically what you are asking relates to the planning situation. At some point they would need to get panning permission for development or change of use depending on how intensively they played golf, or more to the point sought to change the landscape. I'm no expert but there is a limit to the amount of much shifted when you need to get planning permission. Likewise doing anything that effects the SSSI.




Niall

[Rich Goodale]

At some point they would need to get panning permission for development

Niall

If you are concerned about "panning" permission, you need to visit Helmsdale and their golden burns  I think Chuckie Windsor has financial interests there.  There is also a 9-hole golf course that spawned one of the greatest amateur players in the north of Scotlandi in the past 40+ years, Stuart Shaw,

Rich

Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Dai


I think basically what you are asking relates to the planning situation. At some point they would need to get panning permission for development or change of use depending on how intensively they played golf, or more to the point sought to change the landscape. I'm no expert but there is a limit to the amount of much shifted when you need to get planning permission. Likewise doing anything that effects the SSSI.




Niall

In general, an SSSI (British designation) is easier to get round than an SAC (European designation).


The British never did follow the European guidelines on this. Another amazing reason why The UK is leaving Europe. They've always ignored the things they didn't like anyway.