Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)

[Sean_A]

Another top notch course in the Dornoch area would be help the smaller venues imo.  I am not convinced Dornoch will benefit though as it doesn't need more visitors! 

Jon

I am not sure what authentic Scottish feel is, but I think you will not find it a new high end course.

Ciao

Sean, when you say that you are "not convinced Dornoch will benefit", are you referring to the town or the golf club?

True, RDGC does not need more visitor rounds nor does it need any "help" attracting outside interest. However, as cited previously, following the opening of Castle Stuart, the town of Dornoch saw a net LOSS in visitor room/hotel nights. That trickles down to everyone: restaurants, shops, pubs, etc.

It became clear that golf tourism was treating Dornoch in a very transient manner that benefited RDGC, but bypassed the town. It is also well-documented that the developers of Coul Links first came to RDGC with a proposal.

Part of the appeal of the developer's proposal behind Coul is that it could add the need for 100 more hotel beds in the area. Is that good or bad? Well, it depends on your perspective. If the town of Dornoch became a golf tourism "hub" in the Highlands, instead of a "spoke" of Inverness, that could lead to a net benefit for Brora, Golspie and the town.

I was referencing the club.

Honestly, I don't go to the Dornoch area enough to really be invested in whether or not the town could be boosted by a major new golf development.  That said, more rooms in a "resort" like place doesn't sound like it would bode well for Dornoch attracting people to spend money in the town when they visit the club. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Ian


Re: your post # 224, and in particular your comment on the nature of golf tourism becoming more transient, do you think a high end, high cost development will really change that trend ? Do you think it will increase bookings any at the Eagle Hotel ?


It seems to me that the greater the cost of the golf, the more likely it is that those paying that kind of money are the type who are doing the grand tour of must see venues, and those types aren’t going to be spending time in Dornoch, and probably not the Eagle Hotel.


The days of families going up and spending a week playing golf have long gone I suspect, unless of course they are members. The move from those that are inclined to those that can afford it, is caused not through a lack of high cost golf but because of it. That’s just my perspective.
 
Niall

[Thomas Dai]

There is already a high end, high cost development in the Dornoch area.
It's called Carnegie/Skibo - here's Ran's profile from 2007 - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/skibo-golf-course/
Atb

[Sean_A]

There is already a high end, high cost development in the Dornoch area.
It's called Carnegie/Skibo - here's Ran's profile from 2007 - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/skibo-golf-course/
Atb

That is a very high end few members and visitors allowed model. It doesn't mean this nor that in the big scheme of things.

Ciao

[Ian Mackenzie]

There is already a high end, high cost development in the Dornoch area.
It's called Carnegie/Skibo - here's Ran's profile from 2007 - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/skibo-golf-course/
Atb

Exactly what Sean said.
But will add: $500+ to play, hard to get access, course done by Donald Steele. It's one of those "one and done", "check that box" courses for belt notchers.

[David_Tepper]

I would take issue with the notion that "high-end" golf is not a legitimate part of the fabric/history of golf in Scotland. In fact, it could be argued that the development of luxurious resorts like Gleneagles and Turnberry (and at the time Cruden Bay) introduced the notion of a traveling to a "golf resort" to the world.

Obviously the vast majority of golf in Scotland was developed to serve the local communities. But the many "golf hotels" adjacent to the first tees of many courses suggest that there were numerous golf "resorts" back in the day.

[MClutterbuck]

Lets say you are contemplating three 1-week golf trips to Scotland over your lifetime and have the means to play top courses. As things stand today, you will not spend a full week in the Highlands if you want to maximize the Scotland experience. With a succesfull Coul Links, I think you might start thinking of dedicating a full week to the North or North and Northeast.

Define "the Scotland Experience". Note - this isn't some sort of snidey question but genuinely interested what you think the Scotland Exeperience is or should be ? Indeed did your ideas change after your trip ?


Niall

Niall,


My reference to the Scotland Experience is part geographical, part course diversity. I think you should get to know diverse towns and regions, and play in diverse types of courses. I had no interest in inland courses, but I was interested in some of the classic greats, some modern courses and some Brora type courses.   


If I were to recommend Scotland itineraries today, based on no more than three, 1-week trips to Scotland in a lifetime, I would not recommend one of those weeks is spent entirely in the Highlands. There is just too much else to see in Scotland. If Coul Links turned out to be a top 10 Scotland course, I might consider staying and recommending a full week based in Dornoch (in a small B&B not a resort) or even a 5 day stay adding 2 courses north east.


Did my trip change my ideas? Well it did in some ways. Scotland is so much better than I imagined! The trip reinforced the idea of how much fun we could have on a course rated a touch below the 9s and 10s, as well as on a Brora type course. It reinforced the idea of diversity. The 3 guys that came with me allowed me to plan 100% of the course selection and the only comments I received ahead of time were about leaving out a Carnoustie and including a Gullane #1 or a Brora. I believe today all 4 of us are extremely happy with the balance and we are planning a second trip with the same type of course diversity.


While some of the market is always going to try to play the 8 most expensive or famous courses across the whole country and maybe repeat that 5 years later, I think sticking to 1 or 2 regions per trip, covering all regions after 3 trips and playing across greater diversity of courses gives you the best Scotland Golf Experience.


M

[Jon Wiggett]

I would take issue with the notion that "high-end" golf is not a legitimate part of the fabric/history of golf in Scotland. In fact, it could be argued that the development of luxurious resorts like Gleneagles and Turnberry (and at the time Cruden Bay) introduced the notion of a traveling to a "golf resort" to the world.

Obviously the vast majority of golf in Scotland was developed to serve the local communities. But the many "golf hotels" adjacent to the first tees of many courses suggest that there were numerous golf "resorts" back in the day.

David,


that is not what I am saying. You can offer a high end experience without it being a corporate one. Maybe a little less of the fake tartan everywhere and a starter giving the 2 minute concept speech whilst handing over the little bag of logo stuff. I am not saying there is no place for this and I do like it occasionally but it seems all the new 'resort' courses and some of the classics are doing it. I hope Coul Links comes up with something original and authentic.


Jon

[David_Tepper]

Jon -

Understood and agreed! But I see nothing wrong with a starter handing out complimentary course guides and offering a few welcoming words.

DT

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would take issue with the notion that "high-end" golf is not a legitimate part of the fabric/history of golf in Scotland. In fact, it could be argued that the development of luxurious resorts like Gleneagles and Turnberry (and at the time Cruden Bay) introduced the notion of a traveling to a "golf resort" to the world.

Obviously the vast majority of golf in Scotland was developed to serve the local communities. But the many "golf hotels" adjacent to the first tees of many courses suggest that there were numerous golf "resorts" back in the day.

David,


that is not what I am saying. You can offer a high end experience without it being a corporate one. Maybe a little less of the fake tartan everywhere and a starter giving the 2 minute concept speech whilst handing over the little bag of logo stuff. I am not saying there is no place for this and I do like it occasionally but it seems all the new 'resort' courses and some of the classics are doing it. I hope Coul Links comes up with something original and authentic.


Jon

The good thing about Coul, Jon, is that you can check four other places to see what has been done by Mike Keiser and Coore/Crenshaw:


1. Bandon Dunes
2. Barnbougle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwQ4a7_MmlI
3. Cabot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THVlPhl_G-I
4. Sand Valley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwZnxNzXs2s


Remember, there will no housing or lodging at Coul.


A few things:


a. Look at where the courses are ranked globally
b. Look at the impact the courses have had on the local economies: [size=78%]http://www.golfchannel.com/media/keisers-golf-course-saves-nova-scotia-town/[/size]

[Ally Mcintosh]

No talk of the golf course here.


A question:


On a sliding scale, do you think we will get a course that is closer identified as a traditional old school links.... or do you think it will tip closer to a Coore and Crenshaw style built over beautiful authentic links land?


Both of which would be excellent. But I know which I'd prefer to see - a course routed by modern masters with a great deal of restraint in the visual fireworks department.

[Ian Mackenzie]

No talk of the golf course here.


A question:


On a sliding scale, do you think we will get a course that is closer identified as a traditional old school links.... or do you think it will tip closer to a Coore and Crenshaw style built over beautiful authentic links land?


Both of which would be excellent. But I know which I'd prefer to see - a course routed by modern masters with a great deal of restraint in the visual fireworks department.

I think you will see C/C's masterpiece with substantial influence from RDGC as well as the classic links courses NE of Dublin.

[Ally Mcintosh]

No talk of the golf course here.


A question:


On a sliding scale, do you think we will get a course that is closer identified as a traditional old school links.... or do you think it will tip closer to a Coore and Crenshaw style built over beautiful authentic links land?


Both of which would be excellent. But I know which I'd prefer to see - a course routed by modern masters with a great deal of restraint in the visual fireworks department.

I think you will see C/C's masterpiece with substantial influence from RDGC as well as the classic links courses NE of Dublin.

So you don't believe it will be instantly recognisable as a C&C course then? Or at least as a modern links course?


Out of interest, which courses north east of Dublin and why them?

[Jud_T]

Ally,


I'm not sure what you're asking.  Are you suggesting some type of tribute course?  C&C are known for their restraint. While they perhaps didn't invent the name 'minimalism', when you look it up in the dictionary, Bill Coore's picture comes up.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,


I'm not sure what you're asking.  Are you suggesting some type of tribute course?  C&C are known for their restraint. While they perhaps didn't invent the name 'minimalism', when you look it up in the dictionary, Bill Coore's picture comes up.

Jud,


that depends on your definition of minimalism. I think C&C understand the style of the Scottish links but will the have the nerve to produce such a course given the fact it would get less fawning from the golf press where as if they produce what is for them their box standard look I would imagine it will be much better received in the short term.


Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,


I'm not sure what you're asking.  Are you suggesting some type of tribute course?  C&C are known for their restraint. While they perhaps didn't invent the name 'minimalism', when you look it up in the dictionary, Bill Coore's picture comes up.

Jud,


that depends on your definition of minimalism. I think C&C understand the style of the Scottish links but will the have the nerve to produce such a course given the fact it would get less fawning from the golf press where as if they produce what is for them their box standard look I would imagine it will be much better received in the short term.


Jon

Jud; This is what I mean


I have written a fair bit about this. Subtlety vs eye candy. Just because C&C are minimalists, it doesn't mean that aesthetic style isn't high (top?) on their list.


The perverse thing is that for me, the most interesting part of this course will firstly be what kind of bunkering they build. And secondly how they establish the fairways. If they want the course to feel 100 years old then they might want to consider just mowing the fairways out and then bringing them on. Is that really going to happen with all the bucks behind it? Perhaps environmental restrictions might necessitate this a la Mach Dunes - that could be an unexpected benefit.


Total speculation - they'll build a fantastic course, one of the very best. But one that can be identified quite readily as being built in the modern era.

[Thomas Dai]

.......Perhaps environmental restrictions might necessitate this a la Mach Dunes - that could be an unexpected benefit.

Nice wording.
Be nice if the environmental cloud could, in some circumstances, have a silver lining for golf after all.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Ally,


I'm not sure what you're asking.  Are you suggesting some type of tribute course?  C&C are known for their restraint. While they perhaps didn't invent the name 'minimalism', when you look it up in the dictionary, Bill Coore's picture comes up.

Jud,


that depends on your definition of minimalism. I think C&C understand the style of the Scottish links but will the have the nerve to produce such a course given the fact it would get less fawning from the golf press where as if they produce what is for them their box standard look I would imagine it will be much better received in the short term.


Jon

Jud; This is what I mean


I have written a fair bit about this. Subtlety vs eye candy. Just because C&C are minimalists, it doesn't mean that aesthetic style isn't high (top?) on their list.


The perverse thing is that for me, the most interesting part of this course will firstly be what kind of bunkering they build. And secondly how they establish the fairways. If they want the course to feel 100 years old then they might want to consider just mowing the fairways out and then bringing them on. Is that really going to happen with all the bucks behind it? Perhaps environmental restrictions might necessitate this a la Mach Dunes - that could be an unexpected benefit.


Total speculation - they'll build a fantastic course, one of the very best. But one that can be identified quite readily as being built in the modern era.

Ally

Do you think these obviously modern designs will become less so in 50 years?  Of course, in some cases the moderns are built on land which immediately screams modern, but putting that aside...

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I think what Ally is getting at is that modern courses have very smooth fairway which are unnatural. Natural land has lots of random micro-movement in it and it is something that no GCA in the last 50 years has really got right. The best example of this is if you stand on the 10th tee at Kilspindie and compare the wonderful natural contours to what has been built over the wall.


Jon

[Niall C]

There is already a high end, high cost development in the Dornoch area.
It's called Carnegie/Skibo - here's Ran's profile from 2007 - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/scotland/skibo-golf-course/
Atb

But isn't that the point, that at £145 a round RDGC has become a one and done for the great majority of golfers ? £145 might not be a high cost for someone who has flown over the Atlantic and is used to paying even more than that back home, but for the ordinary club golfer that kind of level of greenfee is way over the top. That's not a pop at RDGC, there are many that are worse (Western Gailes at £165 ! and the Queens course at £195 !!).

Niall


Exactly what Sean said.
But will add: $500+ to play, hard to get access, course done by Donald Steele. It's one of those "one and done", "check that box" courses for belt notchers.

[Niall C]

I would take issue with the notion that "high-end" golf is not a legitimate part of the fabric/history of golf in Scotland. In fact, it could be argued that the development of luxurious resorts like Gleneagles and Turnberry (and at the time Cruden Bay) introduced the notion of a traveling to a "golf resort" to the world.

Obviously the vast majority of golf in Scotland was developed to serve the local communities. But the many "golf hotels" adjacent to the first tees of many courses suggest that there were numerous golf "resorts" back in the day.

David

Absolutely correct about Cruden Bay which came before Turnberry which came before Gleneagles. All developed by the railway companies, however I think the discussion, for me anyway, is more about the level of greenfees. Back then locals and visitors alike could get on a for a reasonable cost. That's not really the case any more, and I think it is that which is alien to the Scottish golf scene.

Niall

[Niall C]

Jon -

Understood and agreed! But I see nothing wrong with a starter handing out complimentary course guides and offering a few welcoming words.

DT

Nonsense David, there should be no such thing as a starter, just some bloke in the pro shop saying "the first is over that way and don't let me catch having practice swings on the tee !". Scottish hospitality at its best.

Niall

[Niall C]

Ally

Setting aside the aesthetics such as bunkering style I strongly suspect that the course will, if it ever gets built, be very much modern in scale ie bigger, with free form fairways rather than the rectangular strip you get on traditional links. I expect it to be much in the CS mould with much wider fairways than trad links and with less hazards. It will be very nice !

What reason do I have to say that ? None really, just my perception of modern American built resort courses. I've never played a C&C course so perhaps/probably being totally unfair in that assumption. BTW, how much Crenshaw will be in this course ?

Niall

[Niall C]

I think you will see C/C's masterpiece with substantial influence from RDGC as well as the classic links courses NE of Dublin.

Ian

You already have the RDGC influence in the design of both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, do you not ?

Niall

[Niall C]

The trip reinforced the idea of how much fun we could have on a course rated a touch below the 9s and 10s, as well as on a Brora type course. It reinforced the idea of diversity. ...................................... I believe today all 4 of us are extremely happy with the balance and we are planning a second trip with the same type of course diversity.

M

MC

Many thanks for that, I enjoyed reading it. Picking up on some of your comments about diversity and fun to be had on lower ranked courses it reminds me of a discussion about Scotlands second tier courses being much poorer than Englands, and in a sense that is right. However in a perverse kind of way I think that also the joy of a lot of the lower ranked courses in Scotland in that they wouldn't be classified as great or even very good but at the same time they could have some great golf on them as well as some really unusual and interesting golf.

In short because of the age of a lot of those courses, the fact that many of the lower ranked/unranked courses haven't significantly altered over time due to constraints such as lack of expansion space/money/interest in making changes etc they just don't conform to standard modern thinking. I should say I'm thinking of a lot of inland courses when I say that. Perhaps when you plan your fourth trip over here you might brave the dark heartlands of Scotland 

Niall