The truth about the wind strength and playability

[Simon Holt]

It happens with our club too but not for Cat. 1.  Hence the handicap secretary doing you a favour! 

[Thomas Dai]

It happens with our club too but not for Cat. 1.  Hence the handicap secretary doing you a favour! 

I believe that per Congu Cat 1 hcps can't be adjusted in the same way as the other Cat's.

Once upon a time, pre the modern generation of balls, clubs, fitness etc, there were very few +hcp players. Now there are loads and loads and loads.

Given the level of players competing in the more significant national (and even county/regional) golf in the UK theses days the 5.4 boundary for Cat 1 perhaps ought to be adjusted much lower, say to 1.4 or maybe even lower. For example, at the Duncan Putter at Southerndown this week only those on +1.3 got in. There's a big gap between a +hcp player and a 5.4.

Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Actually, Thomas, CONGU Rules require that the Annual Review be a review of ALL members.  The difference with Cat 1 golfers is that, where an adjustment to their handicap is proposed it must be referred to the Union or delegated Area Authority.  I suspect many clubs put this in the "too hard" category and fail to comply.  It is clear from the CONGU Manual that non-compliance by clubs with the Annual Review requirement is a problem.

[Thomas Dai]

That's it Mark. 'Too hard' category, very apt.


When it comes to wind strength and playability then equipment needs to be considered.


A much easier game these days. Not sure it's more fun though. The ball doesn't move sideways as much as it once did, clubs hit it straighter, even modern golf clothing permitts swinging more freely than in the balata, wood, steel and woollen jumpers knitted by grannie era let alone back to the days of hickory, tweed jackets and ties.


Atb

[Ed Tilley]

I once played at Perranporth and put my bag down on the tee at the 18th - lying on the ground not on a stand - and it blew back 20 yards. Nailed a driver and 5 iron onto the front edge of the 280 yard hole for a regulation 4. My dad was so disoriented by the wind that he played down the wrong hole - even though I'd already played. Course was playable though.

[Jon Wiggett]

A much easier game these days. Not sure it's more fun though. The ball doesn't move sideways as much as it once did, clubs hit it straighter, even modern golf clothing permitts swinging more freely than in the balata, wood, steel and woollen jumpers knitted by grannie era let alone back to the days of hickory, tweed jackets and ties.


Atb

+1

Thomas,

this is something that many do not like to hear but the game is definitely easier for the better players and probably harder for the higher handicappers. Add to that the spiralling costs and it is no wonder that golf is less popular than in the past.

Jon

[Doug Siebert]

Did anyone get out and enjoy the wind whipping through much of the country this weekend? On Saturday it was from the NW here with a peak gust for the day of 63 mph, and a wind chill that only just cracked 30* so obviously no golf. Today it flipped to the WSW and lightened up just a bit - steady at 30-35, gusting to the mid 40s on the front nine and increasing to the low 50s by the time I reached the back nine. Fortunately that strong wind brought the temperature up to 81*, quite a change from the day before!

I think this might be the strongest wind I've ever played in at home, there have been days with a steady wind at 35+, but I don't think I've played in gusts exceeding 50 at home (at Lahinch once I played in a wind that was steady at force 9, with gusts to force 11, according to the clubhouse) The gusts may have actually been stronger than the low 50s where I played, since it is a very wide open space with few trees. When you are on top of the 80 foot saddle shaped ridge that gives the course its name, with flat farmland for over a mile in every direction, you definitely get the full force of the wind in a way that I doubt the official recording station at the airport does.

While there were a few cases of a short downwind putt going 20 feet by, on the whole it was quite playable. It helped that the greens are not up to summer speeds yet. It was quite a challenge though since 12 of the 18 holes are north/south, so controlling the ball in a crazy crosswind was at a premium! I was happy I was able to keep my balance pretty well and hit mostly solid shots, if you mishit in wind like that it will be a very long day!

After I finished a quick little storm came through and dropped a few raindrops, and provided a peak gust of 72 mph. Sorry I missed it

[Sven Nilsen]

The truth about wind strength is that its never blowing as strongly as you think it is, until it is, at which point its probably unplayable.


Sven

[Sean_A]

The truth about wind strength is that its never blowing as strongly as you think it is, until it is, at which point its probably unplayable.


Sven

This is absolutely my experience.  Loads of times guys will say the wind is 20mph or whatever and I think it is 60% of that. 


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

The truth about wind strength is that its never blowing as strongly as you think it is, until it is, at which point its probably unplayable.


Sven

This is absolutely my experience.  Loads of times guys will say the wind is 20mph or whatever and I think it is 60% of that. 


Ciao

So given that you think it's blowing 12(60% of 20), does that mean it's actually 60% of that?
or are you exempt from the theory

[Mark Pearce]

I will simply repeat what I seem to always say on these threads.  I used to work in wind tunnels.  At 50mph you cannot stand up without leaning hard into the wind.  Walking is very, very difficult.  No way are you swinging a golf club.

[Kalen Braley]

I will simply repeat what I seem to always say on these threads.  I used to work in wind tunnels.  At 50mph you cannot stand up without leaning hard into the wind.  Walking is very, very difficult.  No way are you swinging a golf club.

I'd agree Mark,

The worst wind I played in was at Pacific Grove in Monterey.

I checked the wind reports that night and it was 15-20 sustained and gusting in the high 20s.  At those winds, the course was on the edge of unplayable.  Tee balls into the wind went nowhere, balls were shaking bad at rest on the greens, etc.

So for those claiming to play in mid 30s and 40s, I'm just having a hard time believing it.

[Doug Siebert]

So for those claiming to play in mid 30s and 40s, I'm just having a hard time believing it.

The wind speeds I reported in my earlier post are what was reported at the nearest airport, about 10-15 south of the course I played. Since that's surrounded by flatter and less treed terrain than the airport (with the exception of the big 80 foot ridge that cuts across the course) I see no reason to believe that isn't what I experienced when I played on Sunday.

As for the comparison with a wind tunnel, I don't know how the wind speed measurements in it compare to the way the wind is measured by official weather stations. I was in New Orleans years ago when a category 1 hurricane hit with winds of 80 mph, and we were able to walk around outside, with some difficulty. We were able to lean into the wind some if we wanted, but were also able to stand up in it without much of a lean using a 'wide stance'. I'm sure I still have a few pictures in a box somewhere. So I find it hard to believe that 50 mph is hard to stand up in unless the wind tunnel isn't measured in the same manner, or the artificial way it is generated differs from a natural wind (i.e. it is stronger near the ground, making balance more difficult)

As for the round at Pacific Grove, no way was that course 'nearly unplayable' with gusts not even reaching 30 mph. Probably the wind reports were not taken on the coast, I have to think the wind on the course was quite a bit stronger than that to see what you observed, especially on the holes right on the ocean.

[Kalen Braley]

Doug,

I think it would be very interesting to conduct more official research on this, specifically playing golf in windy weather.  And yes, you are correct, the readings in PG may have been a little further inland as opposed to right on the tip of land where the course is.

P.S.  When we teed off on 11, we all hit driver and the furthest drive was just over 125 yards, but only because he hit it low and bounced off the cart path for an extra 20-30 yards of roll.  My tee ball?  It had my normal fade and the wind put a U-turn on it so when it landed it was rolling backwards...lol

[Doug Siebert]

Doug,

I think it would be very interesting to conduct more official research on this, specifically playing golf in windy weather.  And yes, you are correct, the readings in PG may have been a little further inland as opposed to right on the tip of land where the course is.

P.S.  When we teed off on 11, we all hit driver and the furthest drive was just over 125 yards, but only because he hit it low and bounced off the cart path for an extra 20-30 yards of roll.  My tee ball?  It had my normal fade and the wind put a U-turn on it so when it landed it was rolling backwards...lol

On that day on Lahinch I never hit a driver and tried only one lofted shot (an 8 iron with the wind that ended up 260 yards from where I started, so I knew not to try that again) My tee shot of choice into the wind was dropping a ball onto the teebox without a tee, and using a hooded 1 iron to basically punch hook it a few feet above the ground for 80-100 yards then letting it roll! My dad hit a couple drivers (he hits it very low) but couldn't get the ball to stay on the tee unless he used this funky plastic 'brush' tee he had and tilted it a bit, but he couldn't get it to go anywhere so he gave up trying and started punching 3W off the deck for his tee shots.

[Sean_A]

I will simply repeat what I seem to always say on these threads.  I used to work in wind tunnels.  At 50mph you cannot stand up without leaning hard into the wind.  Walking is very, very difficult.  No way are you swinging a golf club.

Mark


I would say you are correct.  The only time I tried to play golf in 50-60mph wind it was without a doubt unplayable. Couldn't raise the club higher than waist high or be pushed off balance.  Putts hit 25 feet would be pushed back past the original spot.  We couldn't reach fairways and merely aimed for the lightest rough we could find. Bags rolled along the ground! 


As I say, 20mph is a hell of a lot stronger than most golfers realize and I know its much stronger than I want to play in.  I routinely play in 15-20 winds in the winter and I have to say holes into that wind are not much fun...just a slog on a 6500 yard course.  It takes a very savvy design to offer a good game of golf in 25ish mph wind.  This is the biggest problem with out n' back courses; they suck when the wind gets up.


Ciao 

[Pete_Pittock]

from around the compass
Bandon Dunes does not have a wind gauge viewable to guests, they thought it would be counter-productive.

Officiating, I have seen one round cancelled at Astoria G&CC because of one hole location where balls at rest would roll off the green. The round was suspended until it was pointed out that iwindsurf.com forecast winds strengthening by another 10 mph. It was in the 40mph range.

I played a round at Sandpines and was just about blown off the course. I had a video camera and drove down to Bandon, got permission to walk and film the one course. More than half the pages in the course guide blew away
and the video was unviewable with shakiness and constant wind howl.

About 40 years ago, when I was able to hit stingers, it still took 6 to reach the 2nd green at Gullane #2, with a NW wind howling the notch. Great caddy that day who coached me on how to play in the wind.

Strongest breeze I played, more like battled, was 45mph at Royal Cinque Port in Oct '07, as memorialized by Andrew Reynolds, if I read the penmanship right . Strong from the left on #1. Once I had returned home I re-read the Horatio Hornblower series, with some degree of affinity for the conditions.   

[Mark Pearce]

Doug,


Wind speed measurements are often taken well above ground level.  It's not uncommon for anemometers to be placed on top of buildings or poles.  Wind flow is frequently laminar, which means often that the wind speed at ground level is significantly lower than it is a a few yards above ground.  That may well be the reason for the discrepancy you point out.  Wind speeds at altitude are often very much higher than at ground level, as pilots well know but this effect continues to low level and the biggest wind speed gradients can be very near the ground.

[Thomas Dai]

As Mark says, wind strength relates to height/altitude, eg sea level vrs top of the cliffs above a beach. A hole like the 9th at Cruden Bay would be example*. Temperature is also a factor......golf balls not so keen to flight through a cold wind as a warmer one.


atb


PS - anyone have an update on the new version of the CB 9th?

[Niall C]

I recall playing in 80 mph winds with a friend. He insisted in playing in rugby boots so he could get better footing even though the greenkeeper wasn’t too happy. The first hole played directly into the teeth of the gale and with the strength of the wind we were leaning over so much into it that we were virtually horizontal with the ground.


As Mark says it’s hard to swing a club in that kind of wind which is why we decided to use the clubs snooker fashion, grip end first. By this method we managed to get to about half way up the hole, me in 127 shots and my friend in 133, before having to turn back as the rope which was tethering us to the clubhouse in case we got blown away, ran out.


Oh happy days. If I have time later I’ll tell you about the time I climbed Everest for charity wearing nothing more than a wet suit and a pair of flippers.


 
Niall

[Kalen Braley]

Niall,

That reminds me of the 'good old days' when our football team won the regional championship with a last minute field goal.

What actually happened:  The kicker made a 25 yard field goal, on a perfect night, with 30 seconds left.
10 years later at the HS reunion:  Its now a 35 yard kick, into the wind with 10 seconds left
20 year later at same reunion:  A 50 yard kick, into a blizzard, with 3 seconds left and time expiring as it went thru the uprights.

[Doug Siebert]

Doug,


Wind speed measurements are often taken well above ground level.  It's not uncommon for anemometers to be placed on top of buildings or poles.  Wind flow is frequently laminar, which means often that the wind speed at ground level is significantly lower than it is a a few yards above ground.  That may well be the reason for the discrepancy you point out.  Wind speeds at altitude are often very much higher than at ground level, as pilots well know but this effect continues to low level and the biggest wind speed gradients can be very near the ground.

I should stop by the airport some time and see if I can figure out where their weather station / wind gauge is located and how high up it is. I don't doubt that it would read higher the higher it is. The wind on the ground is what affects how much your ball blows around on the green, but the wind at 50-100 feet is more important for how a full shot is affected by it, and the difference between the 'measured' wind speed at a given ground elevation and the ground wind speed and the wind speed at 100 feet surely varies in different winds and in different terrains/locations.

The only other wind speed story related golf I can share is when we had a big summer supercell pass through in the late 90s packing extreme winds. It wasn't tornadic, it is what's called a derecho, and in this case the wind exceeded 100 mph throughout the area. There's a golf course south of town and less than a mile east of the river in the midst of an area of very flat river bottom land - centuries old flood plain before a dam was built north of town in the 1950s.

The course has an anemometer on the roof of the restroom between the 3rd fairway and 5th green linked to a computer in the clubhouse. The pro said its last reading recorded during the storm was 123 mph before it blew away, the previous record was 90. Most of the telephone poles on the side of the road from town to several miles south of the course were snapped in half, exactly in the middle. Several of the 200 foot tall long haul power pylons a few miles south of the course were even blown down. Now that's an unplayable wind!