Anyone foresee new Public courses being built to host Majors in next 25 years

[BCowan]

With Pebble Beach, Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines, Whistling Straights, Erin Hills, Pinehurst #2, Chambers Bay, and Kiawah Island all hosting majors, do you think that trend will continue?  The positives I see could be that some older Classics may get taken off the rotation and original width can be restored as well as other design features destroyed by hosting majors.   

[Josh Stevens]

Do you think we might see a major champ played on a pubic course that costs less than $100 (70 pounds) a round so that the public can actually afford to play it? 

[Phil Young]

Josh,

The answer to your question is Bethpage Black. The current rates for NY State residents (according to the Parks department website) is $65 on weekdays and $75 on weekends. In addition, Twilight rates, those purchased after 4 pm, are $39 & $45 respectively. In addition to that, Senior Citizens and juniors pay $42 during the week and $25 for twilight.

Non-NY State residents can still pay under $100 with a twilight rate of $78 weekdays and $90 weekends. Regular rates for them are $130 & $150...

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Black costs less than $100 for residents of New York state (and there are many of us.)

[Phil Young]

Ron,

I beat you by 6 seconds... You must be related to Samson... haircut slow you down? 

[Tom_Doak]

I interviewed for one last month [but didn't get the job].  There is always interest in getting in bed with the governing bodies, as long as they're still interested.  And they are.

[Josh Stevens]

Ok, anything less than $100 that does not involve having to camp in the carpark for three days

There seems to be an issue with scale and economics.  Chambers Bay cost a squillion to build and would be a nightmare for the average punter to play and so will probably go bust. While something that was playable and affordable could never host a major.

So does it actually work.  Can you actually build a course today that can host a major, that will also be playable by Joe for a reasonable price? They seem mutually exclusive.

[Adam Lawrence]

Ok, anything less than $100 that does not involve having to camp in the carpark for three days

There seems to be an issue with scale and economics.  Chambers Bay cost a squillion to build and would be a nightmare for the average punter to play and so will probably go bust. While something that was playable and affordable could never host a major.

So does it actually work.  Can you actually build a course today that can host a major, that will also be playable by Joe for a reasonable price? They seem mutually exclusive.

When I played Chambers, I thought it was great fun. It's a long walk, but I don't get your 'nightmare for the average punter' thing Josh.

[Matt Bielawa]

Ok, anything less than $100 that does not involve having to camp in the carpark for three days

There seems to be an issue with scale and economics.  Chambers Bay cost a squillion to build and would be a nightmare for the average punter to play and so will probably go bust. While something that was playable and affordable could never host a major.

So does it actually work.  Can you actually build a course today that can host a major, that will also be playable by Joe for a reasonable price? They seem mutually exclusive.

I'm sure you could, but why would you?  It just doesn't make business sense.  Supply and demand.  Hosting a major is a license to raise your greens fees.  Making Top 100 lists is a similar license to hike them.


Not to mention, if you don't hike the greens fees, you'll have an excess supply of players trying to take advantage of a great "bargain" and will have more willing players than available tee times (like Bethpage).   

It would take someone who wants to do a sincere public good, and doesn't care about maximizing profit (or minimizing loss).

So, to answer Ben's question, yes, I see new public courses being built for majors, but I don't see them being affordable for the masses.

[jeffwarne]

People go to great expense to travel and play US Open sites.
They pay airfare, hotel, Have dinners far in excess of $100....etc.




Why would you go to the trouble of acquiring the land, dealing with the often painful, expensive permitting process, pay a top architect and builder....take all the $$$,political and emotional risk....


and then price it below the market?


Somebody picks up the tab...and if it's a muni-it's the taxpayers.


In the case of Bethpage it certainly ticks all the boxes, especially with all the other good courses there, but it's supported by a massive population and the State itself if need be.


You don't get to attend Fenway or Yankee Stadium for the World Series for an under market rate why should you get to stroll the fairways of an iconic golf site?


TOC is 170 pounds and it's long ago paid for. (2 1/2 time the target $100 rate).

[Tom_Doak]

So does it actually work.  Can you actually build a course today that can host a major, that will also be playable by Joe for a reasonable price? They seem mutually exclusive.

There are two parts to your problem.


1.  Can you build a course today that could host a major, for a reasonable cost?  Yes. I would guess Erin Hills was originally built for a very reasonable number, because it was a great piece of ground.  Of course, Mike Davis et al. have spent a ton of money REBUILDING parts of it because they weren't happy with the original design, and they felt empowered to spend that money because they're the ones bringing the championship ... and other clients and architects have been known to get carried away on costs trying to be "big time."  But, it's possible.


2.  Will the price stay low?  No!  I learned very early on in my career that construction cost and green fees are not directly related.  You build the course for whatever it takes, and 99% of owners [including municipalities] will charge whatever the market will bear. 
     If I can build a great course for less than someone else, that doesn't mean it will cost less to play; it means the owner will make more money.  It sucks for the consumer, but tell me you wouldn't do the same thing if you owned it ... even if your town owns it, it's not like the rest of the annual budget couldn't use a cash cow 

[John Kavanaugh]

You will never get the people who can afford to go if you don't charge enough.

[Garland Bayley]

Josh,


A bunch of us went to play Chambers Bay at 7670 yards as an open preview. The average punter scored low net for the day.

[Peter Pallotta]

You will never get the people who can afford to go if you don't charge enough.

"....the fundamental things in life apply, as time goes by..."

I think the USGA could do a heck of a lot more to foster the essence and ethos of the game by bringing back the Public Links Championship than it does by straining for/overselling public courses as championship venues.

There is some subtle misdirect going on with what the USGA is doing re public US open venues. When they tweak the heck out of Erin Hills and hold a championship, and then watch as golfers galore flock there and play big money to play a "US Open course", the USGA can smugly say:

"See, there's nothing at all wrong with the game of golf or with our notion of how it should be played or with the kind of courses we like or with how we have handled runaway technology -- both pros and the average amateur can happily play the same course!"   

[Garland Bayley]

What about Trinity Forest?

[Carl Nichols]

Ok, anything less than $100 that does not involve having to camp in the carpark for three days

There seems to be an issue with scale and economics.  Chambers Bay cost a squillion to build and would be a nightmare for the average punter to play and so will probably go bust. While something that was playable and affordable could never host a major.

So does it actually work.  Can you actually build a course today that can host a major, that will also be playable by Joe for a reasonable price? They seem mutually exclusive.

Anyone can play Chambers Bay for less than $100 in February.  County residents can play it for $105 through April, though it does get more expensive after that.  There's also some form of membership that keeps rates lower than that (though not always less than $100).


Bethpage Black is never more than $75 for New York State residents.


Torrey Pines is never more than $76 for San Diego County residents.


As others have said, however, those low prices drive serious demand.

[Kalen Braley]

Seems to me like this will be doubtful, given....

1)  The PGA or USGA doesn't seem to be interested in hosting at a course that is not near a large population center or lacks the space to put up their tent city.

2)  Any new course near a major population center means land acquisition and holding costs will likely be too prohibitive to both have enough room space for the course and the "Extras" which would only be utilized at best for one week every 5 years.

3)  Given the current barriers to entry in a industry that appears to be contracting,  seems to be hard to justify such a setup...unless a legitimate use for the extra space could be found, say a sports park with multiple fields for soccer leagues, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

I think the USGA could do a heck of a lot more to foster the essence and ethos of the game by bringing back the Public Links Championship than it does by straining for/overselling public courses as championship venues.
   

The problem was that the Public Links was almost completely dominated by college golfers who somehow claimed a "public course" connection even though they were playing scholarship golf and practicing at private clubs.


That could have been corrected by scheduling, as the USGA has done for its new four-ball competition ... scheduling it during the college golf season so those players can't enter.  So, instead, the first Women's Four-Ball event was dominated by high school players about to go off to college 

[Pete_Pittock]

Streamsong courses may be to short at 7100 yds., but would a composite course work for a major? Is the Hanse course going to be contiguous, or in a separate area. It is close enough to Tampa and Orlando, and Florida hasn't hosted a major to my recollection.

[John McCarthy]

Pete:  A major in Florida in the summertime in a treeless expanse?  The fans will drop like bags of wet cement.

[jeffwarne]

Pete:  A major in Florida in the summertime in a treeless expanse?  The fans will drop like bags of wet cement.

What fans?

[Dan Gallaway]

Related question on Streamsong.  Could you put together a composite course that would combine the "best" holes of each course?  Would it feel too disjointed being from different architects?  I haven't played there yet, and with the Black being designed, I'm probably a few years away from going, but does make me wonder?

[BHoover]

PGA National hosted the 1987 PGA Championship. I'm guessing it was rather warm.

[Dan Gallaway]

I understand that the composite at Melbourne avoids having to cross the road, but is it a better routing? Just a mere curiosity based on the discussions of Royal Melbourne, Sheep Ranch, The Loop, other "hidden" reversible courses.

[K Rafkin]

Streamsong courses may be to short at 7100 yds., but would a composite course work for a major? Is the Hanse course going to be contiguous, or in a separate area. It is close enough to Tampa and Orlando, and Florida hasn't hosted a major to my recollection.

The Black is completely separate from the Red and Blue.  It occupies the land over the water just south of Red three, four, and five.  While a major in Florida is unlikely due to what time of the year majors are hosted and the extreme heat, the black course is certainly going to be long enough.  Its my understanding that Streamsong is instead hoping to host high level Amateur events.

Related question on Streamsong.  Could you put together a composite course that would combine the "best" holes of each course?  Would it feel too disjointed being from different architects?  I haven't played there yet, and with the Black being designed, I'm probably a few years away from going, but does make me wonder?

I've never thought about making an 18 hole composite course between the Red and the Blue however, there are plenty of places to cross over one course to the next.  I don't think the combination of the holes themselves would be awkward, however in order to get 18 holes I'm sure the routing would feel a bit off.  Given the added distance, I would expect the black course to host the PGA Tour if they ever visited.