No great par-3 over 200 yards

[Pete Blaisdell]

My God, let's not forget the greatest long 3 Par on the planet. Mr Hogan would agree.


The 4th at Riviera.

[V. Kmetz]

Jiminy Crickets - get rid of individual hole pars and we could dispense with this needless and arbitrary criteria of evaluation, and just treat holes as they are found.


Call each and every thing of 18 "holes" a golf course, and we all know that the numeric standard for expert play is level 4s or 72, let's just go from there...


Every hole is thus a solution of 4 conceptually...there will be easy ones and hard ones and ones in the middle...and 1s and 2s are available on a few of them, 3s are available on most of them, 4 is a good score available on each of them, 5 is a mediocre score available on each of them, and 6s-plus are the results of poor play and misfortune...


Whatever is gained by having an easy 125 yard 4 can be lost by having a seemingly unattainable 700 yard par 4...and everything in between, if well-rendered, provides the similar and smaller fulcrum of the balance.


I urge inclined board members to approach their next round experimentally and take this focus on each tee (how can I make a 4 here?) and I believe the internal conscience of how your play honestly measured to that pursuit, will reveal to you just how good a hole (and a course) is.


cheers


vk

[Ken Moum]

As expected, lots of specific holes mentioned.


Does anyone agree with the underlying premise, that long par-3 holes are generally not as good or as fun as shortish ones?


Is the concept of one-shatters lost for the average player somewhat with 240 or 250 yard holes?

Martin, I believe that half-par holes are all potentially excellent. But the fact is almost no one else like holes that play a half stroke ABOVE par.


I'd like someone to rationally explain why changing 13 at ANGC and 10 at Riviera to a par four and a par three would make ANY difference in their greatness.  The only reason I can come up with is that the par figure changes player's mindset.


I find that silly as hell. The shot values are the same, the options are the same, the likelihood of gaining or losing strokes to the competition is the same.....   


For my game, I think holes ~300 yards and ~450 yards are great, and I don't much like holes that ~180, 370-410 or over 500.


The reason is simple, I am a short hitter with a very good short game, and regardless of what they call them 300 yarders and 450 yarders give me a fighting chance against loner hitters.


As far as great par threes over 200, I'm not going to give examples, but I will ask this, "If MacKenzie, Ross, Tillinghast, et. al., thought it was and appropriate test to ask the best players to hit a brassie or driver on a par three, WHY CAN'T we ask Tour players today to do the same thing?


We know that any time we do, they whine like puppies who haven't been fed.


K

[Thomas Dai]

It would be interesting to know the longest club hit by each pro playing the PGA or European Tour on a par-3 last year or so far this year.


I wonder if any Drivers were/have been hit? Or 3-woods/metals? 5-woods/metals or strong hybrids as well?


I imagine the stats are out there. Might make an interesting analysis, kind of a yardage/club/matrix.


Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Has anyone mentioned the 17th at Ganton? Tough par three but great short par four.

[Garland Bayley]

...As far as great par threes over 200, I'm not going to give examples, but I will ask this, "If MacKenzie, Ross, Tillinghast, et. al., thought it was and appropriate test to ask the best players to hit a brassie or driver on a par three, WHY CAN'T we ask Tour players today to do the same thing?...

Tillinghast explicitly wrote that one shot holes should not require the use of a wood.

[Michael Felton]

It would be interesting to know the longest club hit by each pro playing the PGA or European Tour on a par-3 last year or so far this year.


I wonder if any Drivers were/have been hit? Or 3-woods/metals? 5-woods/metals or strong hybrids as well?


I imagine the stats are out there. Might make an interesting analysis, kind of a yardage/club/matrix.


Atb

Not sure, but I do remember watching Luke Donald hit a driver at Merion on the 3rd hole there.

[Josh Tarble]

I generally find that my favorite par 3s are 200 yards and longer. More options open up at that range. A <200 yard hole practically requires a simple drop-and-stop iron shot for me, and success usually is a simple matter of choosing the right club and making a good swing. At 200 yards or more, I have more opportunity to control trajectory and play for the ball to bounce a bit when it lands, which just makes the shot more interesting for me. Also, it's much more satisfying to hit a green with a long iron or hybrid than with an 8 iron, while it's less depressing to miss that same target.

Personal favorites: 10 at Lawsonia (shocked that no one has mentioned this one yet), 13 at Wolf Run, 2 at Idle Hour, 13 at Blackwolf Run River, 15 at Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys, 4 at Clovernook

Jason,
This is a really good post and one I agree with wholeheartedly.  More people should read it.

[KBanks]

8 at Seminole, a long three on flat ground.


10 at Austin GC, a ridge to ridge par three.


Fun, challenging holes whose play is governed by wind.



Ken

[Martin Toal]

I generally find that my favorite par 3s are 200 yards and longer. More options open up at that range. A <200 yard hole practically requires a simple drop-and-stop iron shot for me, and success usually is a simple matter of choosing the right club and making a good swing. At 200 yards or more, I have more opportunity to control trajectory and play for the ball to bounce a bit when it lands, which just makes the shot more interesting for me. Also, it's much more satisfying to hit a green with a long iron or hybrid than with an 8 iron, while it's less depressing to miss that same target.

Personal favorites: 10 at Lawsonia (shocked that no one has mentioned this one yet), 13 at Wolf Run, 2 at Idle Hour, 13 at Blackwolf Run River, 15 at Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys, 4 at Clovernook

Jason


But isn't the problem then that the one shotters less than 200 yards lack the features to make them require somethingo ther than a drop and stop? Not that everyone can simply parachute a ball to the hole side anyway.


I used to play at a course which had a short par-3 on a small split level green. If the flag was on the back, the only reliable way to get to it was to punch a shot onto the front and let it run up. If you dropped and stopped, you would often spin back down to the front and off the green.

If you have large flattish greens then length may be a necessary defence but small sloping greens are often more interesting and can mount a challenge in a shorter hole.

[Sean_A]

Has anyone mentioned the 17th at Ganton? Tough par three but great short par four.

Ganton's 17th would make an excellent 4 if it could be longer to take advantage of the cool domed green.  As it is now as a par 3 it is very easy to deal with the green because its just a chip shot when you inevitably miss the green.  If you could make that approach 75 or 100 yards the green would fully shine.  I suspect this hole has been hurt by equipment advances.


Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

The long par three is usually presented as the dullest hole because it is used as a brute test of strength over very unimaginative land. Too many architects use this as their connector hole between better land for a four or five. It is seen more as a chance to add length and yardage rather than an opportunity for a unique style of hole or a chance to create the most heroic of circumstance. This can be the most important hole on the course yet I think it typically gets the least amount of thought.

[Tom_Doak]

Two great ones that I thought of because of Ian's post:


6th at West Sussex
9th at Jasper Park


Sorry if either of them was mentioned earlier in the thread, I haven't looked back on the last page or two of posts.

[Steve Lang]

   Cleopatra >200 at Jasper a visual stunner, but the Bad Baby at 138 was far more intimidating...


I thought that par 3's were all about accuracy, so if all the "players" really think they are accurate with their drivers, and need to be challenged, then why the discussion about 230-240 yd holes, why not talking 250-275+ just because you'd need an acre sized green???


Short, medium, and long please at minimum... and a postage stamp requiring real accuracy

[Phil Young]

Tilly certainly had no problem designing a one-shotter that was over 200 yards in length and that would require the use of a wood to reach it by many who played it. A great example is his Reef hole template design.

In 1926 he wrote, "My sketch generally describes a length of two hundred twenty-five yards (or with this playing length under normal conditions)... The way to the green on the left is only for the courageous with a long carry directly over the large pit."

[Ed Homsey]

236 yard 4th hole at East Aurora CC.  Interesting terrain and challenging green add to the adventure.  Haven't played it in years, but it sticks in my mind as a great golf hole. 

[Doug Siebert]

Well, some consider #8 at Oakmont no slouch. I guess it plays 296 yds from the back tees. A buddy of mine aced it last year with a 3 wood from that distance in a tournament.

If you ace a really long par 3 on a famous course you really want to see it considered a great hole. Hence my vote for Carnoustie's 16th

[Doug Siebert]

-- The 10th at Lawsonia Links, viewed by some as perhaps his best par 3, at 239 yds from the tips (217 from the everyday white tees), played over relatively flat terrain, with some severe bunkering and mounding that deceive the player on the tee, and an enormous, tilted green that can easily produce three putts.

That's an underrated hole. Usually long par 3s have pretty boring greens, to make up for the distance. There's really nothing to it for the first 200 yards, it is the last 39 yards where it starts to get interesting. Probably most of us would do better in the long run hitting a 200 yard shot and playing the easy pitch, but what fun is that?

The first time I played it I hooked a 2 iron way way left almost onto the back of the 11th tee. It took quite some accuracy and trajectory control to hit a LW between trunks and below/above branches through a 'window' in the tops of the trees to 20 feet behind the hole. My playing partners were stunned I even tried that shot, let alone succeeded. But of course I three putted... 

[Carl Nichols]

8 at Seminole, a long three on flat ground.


10 at Austin GC, a ridge to ridge par three.


Fun, challenging holes whose play is governed by wind.



Ken

Ken--
Just curious about what you think makes 8 at Seminole great.  I thought it was one of the least interesting holes on the course.