No great par-3 over 200 yards

[Carl Nichols]

8 at Cuscowilla.


And isn't just about every biarritz over 200 yards?

[BCrosby]

8 at Cuscowilla.

Terrific hole.

[Martin Toal]

As expected, lots of specific holes mentioned.


Does anyone agree with the underlying premise, that long par-3 holes are generally not as good or as fun as shortish ones?


Is the concept of one-shatters lost for the average player somewhat with 240 or 250 yard holes?

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Martin: If the long holes require a forced carry to the green with no other options to reach (run-ups), I think most golfers would agree shorter par-3s are more fun. However, a lot of long par-3s with various options are a blast!

[Jon Wiggett]

Lot of interesting answers here but what does great really mean?

16th at CPC is spectacular but is it really great for a 24 handicapper hitting the ball 180 yards?

Someone who hits the ball 180 yards can never hit a green 200 yards away, unless the shot plays a lot shorter than the distance.  So it seems to me your point would rule out any 200+ yard par 3. 

But I disagree with that, too.  16 at CPC gives the short hitter a chance.  Don't go for the green.  Play a shot that is not too hard left and short, then have a short pitch to possibly make par.  24 handicappers don't hit many greens or make many pars in any case, but this hole gives them a fighting chance -- in one of the most beautiful, invigorating settings of all golf. 

Great in my book.

Jim,

not really the point I was making so I obviously did not explain myself. Having never seen the 16th at CPC I can not say for sure but is there a carry option under 150 yards? If not then my point stands. On the 5th at PV the shorter hitter off the back tee is going to hit it in the drink meaning a drop with penalty on the tee side of the water. Basically a crap hole for the higher handicapper and even though it is a good challenge for the top player it is still a stinker overall IMHO.

Jon

[Jason Thurman]

I generally find that my favorite par 3s are 200 yards and longer. More options open up at that range. A <200 yard hole practically requires a simple drop-and-stop iron shot for me, and success usually is a simple matter of choosing the right club and making a good swing. At 200 yards or more, I have more opportunity to control trajectory and play for the ball to bounce a bit when it lands, which just makes the shot more interesting for me. Also, it's much more satisfying to hit a green with a long iron or hybrid than with an 8 iron, while it's less depressing to miss that same target.

Personal favorites: 10 at Lawsonia (shocked that no one has mentioned this one yet), 13 at Wolf Run, 2 at Idle Hour, 13 at Blackwolf Run River, 15 at Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys, 4 at Clovernook

[Eric Hammerbacher]

I think hitting driver into a par 3 is one of the most fun shots in golf, in that it poses a shot that we don't see very often.   It calls for accuracy with a club that we aren't expecting to hit a certain distance, because  when you hit driver on a par 4 of 5, you can usually get away with being +/- 20 yards off your normal range.   When you say "OK you have to hit this driver 255 yards and land it on the green", now that's really asking the golfer to do something special that, gasp, requires some skill.  To me, shots where you have to manipulate the clubface to hit a different shot are my favorite.

I'm a big fan of the par 3 around 250, it's usually going to be an interesting shot.

[Thomas Dai]

As expected, lots of specific holes mentioned.
Does anyone agree with the underlying premise, that long par-3 holes are generally not as good or as fun as shortish ones?
Is the concept of one-shatters lost for the average player somewhat with 240 or 250 yard holes?

Having read through the above posts again I am wondering what club posters carry 200 yds? Carry 200 yds, no roll, no wind, no elevation change, no high altitude etc.


Once-upon-time it wasn't but these days it's more often a driver than not for me. And what % of the time can folks, even elite players and guys/gals we see on TV, hit and hold a green with a driver? Not that often I suggest.


Variety in length is nice though, but over use can become pretty boring........and longer par-3's should have more appropriate stoke indexes than just 18-17-16-15, which is far too often the norm.


Atb

[Lukas Michel]

The 9th on the New Course at St Andrews is one of the best I've played.


A fun small punchbowl green with plenty of opportunity to run it up and bump it in from the left or right, along with its setting alongside the Eden estuary.

[Garland Bayley]

16 at CPC. QED

What kind of golf announcer does not even know this? Someone needs to get canned.

[Garland Bayley]

Lot of interesting answers here but what does great really mean?

16th at CPC is spectacular but is it really great for a 24 handicapper hitting the ball 180 yards? I would say no and it is in fact a much better hole for them from a forward tee. The same for the 5th at PV. Looks great but would have been unplayable for my Dad so really a bit of a stinker. I think a lot of people are too caught up on looks rather than substance though I would add there are some good 200+yarders out there such as the 15th at Cleckheaton GC, Bradford.

Jon

 


The good doctor rolled over in his grave when you posted that.
 


I hope others have taken you to task by the time I read this thread, and responded.

[Garland Bayley]

Lot of interesting answers here but what does great really mean?

16th at CPC is spectacular but is it really great for a 24 handicapper hitting the ball 180 yards?

Someone who hits the ball 180 yards can never hit a green 200 yards away, unless the shot plays a lot shorter than the distance.  So it seems to me your point would rule out any 200+ yard par 3. 

But I disagree with that, too.  16 at CPC gives the short hitter a chance.  Don't go for the green.  Play a shot that is not too hard left and short, then have a short pitch to possibly make par.  24 handicappers don't hit many greens or make many pars in any case, but this hole gives them a fighting chance -- in one of the most beautiful, invigorating settings of all golf. 

Great in my book.

Jim,

not really the point I was making so I obviously did not explain myself. Having never seen the 16th at CPC I can not say for sure but is there a carry option under 150 yards? If not then my point stands. On the 5th at PV the shorter hitter off the back tee is going to hit it in the drink meaning a drop with penalty on the tee side of the water. Basically a crap hole for the higher handicapper and even though it is a good challenge for the top player it is still a stinker overall IMHO.

Jon

Jon,


You really need to read The Spirit of St. Andrews by Alister MacKenzie. There he discusses playing the hole solely with a putter.

[Matt Albanese]

I would argue the opposite. I think that Biarritz or Redan holes almost have to be over 200 yards long to play correctly architecturally in today's game. Any shorter and you can often ignore the architectural intent by taking the aerial approach with spin. I do agree that 250+ yard holes with no ground option tend to be no fun for anyone. But, there are plenty of great holes mentioned in this thread. What's wrong with having different holes like 7 and 12 at Dormie which test different aspects of your game? Having that variety keeps things interesting.

[Jon Wiggett]

Lot of interesting answers here but what does great really mean?

16th at CPC is spectacular but is it really great for a 24 handicapper hitting the ball 180 yards?

Someone who hits the ball 180 yards can never hit a green 200 yards away, unless the shot plays a lot shorter than the distance.  So it seems to me your point would rule out any 200+ yard par 3. 

But I disagree with that, too.  16 at CPC gives the short hitter a chance.  Don't go for the green.  Play a shot that is not too hard left and short, then have a short pitch to possibly make par.  24 handicappers don't hit many greens or make many pars in any case, but this hole gives them a fighting chance -- in one of the most beautiful, invigorating settings of all golf. 

Great in my book.

Jim,

not really the point I was making so I obviously did not explain myself. Having never seen the 16th at CPC I can not say for sure but is there a carry option under 150 yards? If not then my point stands. On the 5th at PV the shorter hitter off the back tee is going to hit it in the drink meaning a drop with penalty on the tee side of the water. Basically a crap hole for the higher handicapper and even though it is a good challenge for the top player it is still a stinker overall IMHO.

Jon

Jon,


You really need to read The Spirit of St. Andrews by Alister MacKenzie. There he discusses playing the hole solely with a putter.

Lot of interesting answers here but what does great really mean?

16th at CPC is spectacular but is it really great for a 24 handicapper hitting the ball 180 yards? I would say no and it is in fact a much better hole for them from a forward tee. The same for the 5th at PV. Looks great but would have been unplayable for my Dad so really a bit of a stinker. I think a lot of people are too caught up on looks rather than substance though I would add there are some good 200+yarders out there such as the 15th at Cleckheaton GC, Bradford.

Jon

 


The good doctor rolled over in his grave when you posted that.
 


I hope others have taken you to task by the time I read this thread, and responded.

Why would he be turning in his grave? Surely not for the fact that I say the 16th at CPC is better for a 24 handicapper from a forward tee. Also, not because of my comment about PV as he is not the designer. Finally, nor can it be because of the comment praising his 15th at Cleckheaton which I am sure you for one have probably never heard of and even less have played. So please take me task rather than just blustering.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,


You really need to read The Spirit of St. Andrews by Alister MacKenzie. There he discusses playing the hole solely with a putter.

Garland,

I am well acquainted with this publication as I am with the good Dr.'s designs. However, it was written over 80 years ago and things have changed including the 16th at CPC. Can you really play a putter along the ground from the back tee today? From the overheads of the course today I would very much doubt it.

[Jim Nugent]

Jon, I think from the tips you only need carry 135 yards, if you take the safe route.  From the front tees, you  only have to carry 100 yards. 

As Garland says, you can probably putt your way from the back tee to the green.  Wonder how many strokes it would take to do that?   

[Jim Nugent]

I know it's been said here before, but looking at the hole reminds me again that CPC could create one of the world's most spectacular par 4s around #16.  Just place the tee fairly close to #15 green.  Around 280-90 yard carry to the green and the chance to putt for eagle... 200-220 to today's 'safe' option, which leaves a 100 or so yard pitch at birdie... and a safer route along the coast that could turn 16 into a 3-shot hole. 

Talk about a wealth of riches at that site! 

[Carl Rogers]

Winchester #11
Brae Burn #17
Essex #4
Orchards #7


Ross usually had a stout par 3 in his routings

Another example is 11 or 12 at Mid Pines.

  I think you mean No. 13 at MP.

[Tim Martin]

Kittansett 11
Sleepy Hollow 7
Taconic 17
Fox Chapel 17
Longmeadow 13


At 217 Sleepy Hollow 7 is the shortest of the above referenced holes

[Bill_McBride]

Winchester #11
Brae Burn #17
Essex #4
Orchards #7


Ross usually had a stout par 3 in his routings

Another example is 11 or 12 at Mid Pines.

  I think you mean No. 13 at MP.

Whatever, that long par 3.   In May 2016 I made my only career hole in one, on the 216 yard par 3 over the water, into the wind, at Stevinson Ranch in central California.   In October that year, during the Dixie Cup at Mid Pines, my driver up the hill on that hole wound up one inch behind the hole.  That would have been a great bifecta!

[Jon Wiggett]

As Garland says, you can probably putt your way from the back tee to the green.  Wonder how many strokes it would take to do that?   

Jim,

so putter tee to green is a way to play the hole with a realistic chance of getting an appropriate score for your usual standard of play. Really!!! Because there doesn't seem to be mown grass leading from the fairway back to the tee so maybe along the path but that can be said for the 17th at Sawgrass.

Having said that at a 100 yard carry most half decent players should make it across. Something not mentioned by our Mac expert is the good Dr. designed the 16th to be a par four not a par three.

Jon

Jon

[Tim Gallant]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned yet: Why not lay-up? We always talk about how half par holes make for the most interesting play, and clearly, a 200+ yard par-3 is going to be a tough par for mid to high handicappers. So what? Tom Watson said something along the lines of, we lay up on par 4s that we can't reach in two, so how is a par 3 different? Chances are that if an average player lays-up and makes a 4, over the course of a year, he will be about par for the hole. What if it was a par-4, 240 yards instead of a par-3? Would that change the way it is played? If so, then the architect has challenged, and bested your mental ability to break down the hole.


I caveat this by saying that there should be options (like every hole), but all the ones that I have seen from the listed above do have options.

[BCrosby]

The 9th on the New Course at St Andrews is one of the best I've played.

A fun small punchbowl green with plenty of opportunity to run it up and bump it in from the left or right, along with its setting alongside the Eden estuary.

Indeed. An under-appreciated hole. Adding to its charm is that the 9th is set on a ridge and tends to be more exposed to wind than other holes on the course. 


Bob

[Criss Titschinger]

There are plenty of par 3's over 200 yards that are great.

One I've enjoyed after more and more plays at my (new) home club is the 6th at Miami View. It was renovated a few years ago, and I think the hole is much better for it. From the tips at 208 yards, it's very visually intimidating. You see a sliver of green and a sliver of a fairway area short right, and you think there's no way you hit that target. However, the green is a lot larger than it appears, and so is the layup area. Sure, it requires a 165 carry to reach the fairway area; and if you top it, you're in a valley having to play 30 ft. up to the green. But I would argue if you're playing from the back tees, you should be able to make that carry.

The back two tees both require the carry shot. The forward tees play the hole between 130-90 yards, where the carry to the fairway area is, at most, 100 yards, and the hole is more level. That is, if you top the ball, the punishment is not nearly as severe as a top from the tips.

It's a tough hole for sure; but one where if you play from the appropriate tees based on your skill level, the hole presents a good and fair challenge.

Other ones I like that I've played (off the top of my head) include:
17 White Bear Yacht Club
17 Canterbury (Ohio)
16 World Woods (Pine Barrens)
4 Clovernook
16 Windsong Farm

[Phil McDade]

William Langford -- a Golden Era architect whose courses still stand as solid tests today -- often built long par 3s on his courses, with the intention of having them played with fairway woods and even driver, according to his writings.


Three in Wisconsin that stand out:


-- The 10th at Lawsonia Links, viewed by some as perhaps his best par 3, at 239 yds from the tips (217 from the everyday white tees), played over relatively flat terrain, with some severe bunkering and mounding that deceive the player on the tee, and an enormous, tilted green that can easily produce three putts.


-- The 5th at Spring Valley, 230 yds from the tips, which plays from an elevated tee but often into the prevailing wind, with a tee shot over the corner of a pond to large, crowned green. No bunkers (true for the entire course), but a hard par where Langford demands (moreso than on many of his par 4s and 5s here) the player hit a long shot straight and true.


-- The 4th at West Bend CC, a cousin to the 10th at Lawsonia, 217 yds from the tips (201 yds from the regular tees), played over flat terrain but a hole where bunkering and mounding put a premium on accurate play off the tee.