All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm headed overseas and was wondering how the AELTC compares to the great private golf clubs in the world. I'd love to get a game of tennis there when in town and tour the facilities. Has anyone ever played there and how can a guy do it, short of deleting his internet history and perhaps several years of therapy.


Do they have what would seem a natural connection to any golf courses?

[JJShanley]

White shirt, yellow balls s'il vous plait.

[John Kavanaugh]

The funny thing about how this relates to architecture is how so many of you often site that golf is the only sport where venue matters. AELTC is eight hours off my scheduled route but I would go there in a second. I guess that makes it a Doak 10.

[Tim Gallant]

Having zero idea about anything tennis related, I have shot out a few emails to those better informed and will try to post in the next few days

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm like that guy who showed up at Augusta for the practice round. Guess what tournament is being held when I would be in London. Outside of extensive practice and a few lightning strikes I'll just need to buy a ticket to see the place. Oops.

[David_Tepper]

A visit to the Wimbledon Lawn Tennis Museum might have to suffice:

http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/museum_and_tours/

[Josh Stevens]

It may however be instructive to consider Wimbledon as evidence for the argument about why "The Open Championship" is not called the "British Open"

Its not the British Open for exactly the same reason that Wimbledon is not the British Tennis Open ie/ Like The Masters at Augusta, they all just started out as private events run by private clubs, that sort of got a bit out of hand.

The All England Club is no more the Administrator of the game of Tennis than the R&A is the administrator of the game of golf. 

[mike_beene]

Walking from Southfields station to the All England takes you by a nice looking golf course .Whether you like Tennis or not Wimbeldon is very cool.

[David_Tepper]

"Walking from Southfields station to the All England takes you by a nice looking golf course."

Mike B. -

I made that walk a couple of times too many years ago. That is the Wimbledon Park Golf Club across the road from the All England club.

http://www.wpgc.co.uk/

Rumor has it the tennis club is attempting to buy out the the golf club to acquire more land for expansion. Shades of Augusta National's expansionist tendencies!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3375017/No-one-tennis-Golfers-snub-50k-bribes-quit-course-massive-expansion-Wimbledon-tennis-club.html

DT

[mike_beene]

That is a very tight property. Much more so than Flushing.Never been to the other two grand slam events

[Adam Lawrence]

"Walking from Southfields station to the All England takes you by a nice looking golf course."

Mike B. -

I made that walk a couple of times too many years ago. That is the Wimbledon Park Golf Club across the road from the All England club.

http://www.wpgc.co.uk/

Rumor has it the tennis club is attempting to buy out the the golf club to acquire more land for expansion. Shades of Augusta National's expansionist tendencies!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3375017/No-one-tennis-Golfers-snub-50k-bribes-quit-course-massive-expansion-Wimbledon-tennis-club.html

DT

The All England club in fact already owns the land on which WPGC is sited. They have made the club members an offer to buy out the remainder of their lease, but the members have said no thanks.


WPGC is an interesting little place. My friend David Langheim MG is the course manager. The course closes for the two weeks of the Wimbledon championships each year, and serves as a parking lot for the tennis. Dave then has to get it back in play as quickly as possible, which usually involves buying and laying a large quantity of new turf. In this he's aided by the £1 million plus rental fee that the tennis club pays for the use of the grounds - making WPGC, ostensibly a small suburban club, one of the most cash-rich in the UK

[Josh Stevens]

But then its all over in 2041.  Its a bit depressing to know the exact day you are going to die.

Sad to have been there so long and knowing that you will be dozed for a carpark and hotel on a specific date. Not that London has enough golf courses, although that area seems well catered to. 

I do however wonder how they go with tax.  Surely as a not for profit they cant distribute the proceeds to members?

[Niall C]

It may however be instructive to consider Wimbledon as evidence for the argument about why "The Open Championship" is not called the "British Open"

Its not the British Open for exactly the same reason that Wimbledon is not the British Tennis Open ie/ Like The Masters at Augusta, they all just started out as private events run by private clubs, that sort of got a bit out of hand.

The All England Club is no more the Administrator of the game of Tennis than the R&A is the administrator of the game of golf.

Nonsense. The reason it's called the Open is because anyone can join in provided they qualify, and the reason it's not called the British Open is because when it started and when it got the name there was very few if any outside the UK playing the game therefore adding British (or indeed Scottish) to the name would have been superfluous. The original intent was to find the champion golfer following the demise of Allan Robertson.


Who ran it had nothing to do with it.


Niall

[Josh Stevens]

We are sort of on the page but I am looking more at facts that habit or history. Its not called the British Open because it isn't the British Open.

Maybe I am a pedant, but I would think that for an event to be called a national open it should meet  two basic criteria - it should be played only in that nation, and that it be run and managed by the governing body of that sport in that nation.

The US Open meets both criteria, but The Open meets neither.  It has been and will again be played outside Britain (Northern Ireland is not Britain, it is the UK, they are not the same thing), and the R&A is not the governing body for golf in Britain (that would be the English, Scottish and Welsh Golf Unions).

The public can call it what they want, and I accept that common usage wins in the end, but I suspect you wont hear the R&A ever call it that simply because they know they have no right to do so. 

[Rich Goodale]

We are sort of on the page but I am looking more at facts that habit or history. Its not called the British Open because it isn't the British Open.

Maybe I am a pedant, but I would think that for an event to be called a national open it should meet  two basic criteria - it should be played only in that nation, and that it be run and managed by the governing body of that sport in that nation.

The US Open meets both criteria, but The Open meets neither.  It has been and will again be played outside Britain (Northern Ireland is not Britain, it is the UK, they are not the same thing), and the R&A is not the governing body for golf in Britain (that would be the English, Scottish and Welsh Golf Unions).

The public can call it what they want, and I accept that common usage wins in the end, but I suspect you wont hear the R&A ever call it that simply because they know they have no right to do so.

Try telling any of your Protestant pals from the 6 Counties that they are not "British" and then duck, and quickly......


If it were "The" Open it would have been played in Eire and France and India and Canada and the Netherlands, etc. etc. and long before now.  Get over it fellow Brits!  It is the "The" Open only for those who bow and scrape before the Queen.


IMVHO


Rich

[Josh Stevens]

They are not British, but I suspect they actually understand the difference but like most of us don't really care.

The full and proper name of the political entity we are talking about is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" - have a look at the front of their passports.

It is a bit long winded I confess, it would be a bugger to engrave on the front of a trophy and saying you are a "United Kingdomer" doesn't really roll off the tongue and so I understand why the word Britain is substituted, but technically speaking it is not correct.  We also use the word "America" when in fact we are only talking about the United States of America, a fact that no doubt pisses off the other 50 or so countries that are also American. 

I suspect the USGA would have a fight on their hands if they dared to claim their event was the "American Open".  But at least they are a governing body.  The R&A has never claimed such authority.


 

[Jon Wiggett]

It is called The Open because as Niall pointed out it is open to anyone who qualifies and when it started it was the only one of its kind. It is not a National Championship. Same reason I suspect why the World Series is not the American world series. Also the reason why the PGA is not the British PGA etc......

[Sean_A]

They are not British

Incorrect...see The Good Friday Agreement.  If you were born from 2005 folks with either British or Irish parentage born in NI can claim citizenship of either the UK or Ireland and in some cases both.  If you were born on the Island of Ireland previous to 2005 you could claim Irish citizenship. 

Being British and Irish is not mutually exclusive. For most it is a matter of priority. Some will think of themselves as purely Irish and some purely British, but a great many consider themselves both with a priority on one or the other. 


The Open is not a national open.  The home countries have national opens, though I don't think it was until recently that there was a Northern Ireland Open. 

Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

There is a difference between "British" and "Great Britain". Great Britain is the island of Great Britain, i.e. England, Wales and Scotland. Great Britain is not a country, that is the United Kingdom of GB & NI. However, citizens of the UK are officially described as "British citizens". There is no such thing as a UK citizen - check the UK govt website if you're not sure. The nationality any British citizen would fill in on any official form would be "British". The term British is not restricted to those from the island of Great Britain.

People from NI can be "British citizens" or they can be "Irish citizens" - in some cases they can be both. The point I'm making is that people with a passport with "UK of GB & NI" on the front are, officially, British. Rory McIlroy, for example, is a British citizen. Obviously, and rightly so, he also considers himself Irish but his nationality is, officially, British.

[Sean_A]

Since we are on a tangent, has Rory decided if he is going to try to play for Ireland or Great Britain in the Os?  I don't know if Rory claimed his Irish citizenship, if he wants to or if he needs to prior to the Os. 


Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

Both McIlroy (Catholic) and McDowell (Protestant) have elected to play for Ireland, although McDowell is unlikely to qualify as Shane Lowry is well ahead of him in the rankings. I have a lot of sympathy for both of them for being put in that position when they are, after all, just sportsmen.

I believe Northern Irish people have always been able to represent Ireland in the Olympics - e.g. Barry McGuigan. They don't need to be official Irish citizens - i.e. hold a passport. I can't imagine the IOC ever wanted to get involved in that particular viper's nest and object on some technicality.

[Josh Stevens]

The US of course has exactly the same problem - people from Canada and Mexico are Canadians and Mexicans, but the USA is hard.  And so you latch onto one word of your title.  Being American or British is a lot easier to say than being United Statian or United Kingomish.  Its convenient but not technically correct.

So please be consistent - demanding it be called the British Opens is identical to the Brits demanding you call yours the American Open.  Simple but incorrect - just like Donald Trump.

[Thomas Dai]

Mention of Mr Trump, just think if he'd been a golf Pro he could have played for the Euro's in the Ryder Cup......Scottish mother and all that!


Maybe he'd even opt to play golf for Scotland in the Olympics......and, given that he owns quite a bit of property in the country now, perhaps challenge Nicola Sturgeon for leadership of the SNP.


What a thought [size=78%][/size]



......and Tiger playing for the International Team in the Presidents Cup, Thai mother and all that.


A right tin of worms if the lid is lifted.


Atb

[Josh Stevens]

With all those club championships he would be a shoe in.

[Sean_A]

The US of course has exactly the same problem - people from Canada and Mexico are Canadians and Mexicans, but the USA is hard.  And so you latch onto one word of your title.  Being American or British is a lot easier to say than being United Statian or United Kingomish.  Its convenient but not technically correct.

So please be consistent - demanding it be called the British Opens is identical to the Brits demanding you call yours the American Open.  Simple but incorrect - just like Donald Trump.

Josh


I am not demanding anything, but if I were, it wouldn't be to label a tournament incorrectly.  It is called The Open. 


You are also not correct as to citizenship.  I am a British citizen.  The same is true of someone who is Scottish, Welsh, English or Irish with a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland passport.  There is no such thing as a UK citizen or a Scottish citizen.


BTW - I don't say I am American when asked my citizenship.  I am a US citizen which I often shorten to US. I don't want to be confused with damn Canadians     Not a week goes by when I am not accused of being Canadian...and oddly enough given this thread...Irish..as in from Northern Ireland.   


Ciao