[Cliff Hamm]

Course has a few bunkers that one can putt out of as there is no lip and little rough.  Depends on the angle to the pin though.  At times where there is no lip it would not be advisable to putt as it is not in the direction of the pin.  Otherwise advisable.  One of my favorite shots.  Very few play this shot.  Anyway, is this a good design element?  I obviously think so as it adds to variety and creativity.

[Tom_Doak]

I love to see it every once in a while.  My old favorite was the bunker to the right of #12 at Crystal Downs, but they have a bit of a lip there now.


Technically, all the sand at Tara Iti is "through the green," but it looks like bunker to most people.  The day before the Renaissance Cup, I played in a group that included Sir Bob Charles [a couple weeks shy of turning 80], and on my short par-4 7th he wound up in a shallow bunker 25 yards short of the green ... and just like that, he putted out to about 12 feet.      He put on quite a short game display ... two-putting from 50 yards out on #12, and hitting a number of fine short wedge shots, too.

[Colin Macqueen]

Tom,


What a delight that must have been to see a venerable golfer of Sir Bob's vintage playing the game with such panache ….and he's a mollydooker tae boot!!


Cheers Colin

[James Bennett]

Cliff Hamm

The Australian (Sydney, Australia) had bunkers like that in October 2013.
Every bunker (Well,all of the several I went in) allowed you to putt directly at the pin.

I delight at the occasional opportunity to play this shot, but I despair when it is an option in every bunker.

They may play differently today, and they may play differently when the sand isn't packed by rain/irrigation.

James B

[Neil White]

This is a shot that I quite often consider, more due to my lack of skill from the sand - even if there is a small (1cm) lip to the edge of the bunker.


More often than not though, the circumstances leading to the possibility of playing this shot are due to maintenance practices resulting in a reduced or zero lip as opposed to design.


As James rightly points out, the sand needs to be firm if this is to be attempted.

[Martin Lehmann]

In my view, bunkers are the most overrated and misused hazards in the game of golf. I watched The Cadillac Championship yesterday on television. The bunkering at Doral's Blue Monster is so over the top and ugly, that it hurts the eyes. Too often bunker are used to make mediocre designs look interesting or dramatic.


If bunkers are used, they should be real traps, like the original ones on links courses. Skill is necessary to avoid and escape them. The opportunity to putt out of a shallow bunker doesn't make any sense. If you want to give players this opportunity, build grass bunkers, Valley of Sin like depressions or run-off areas. More difficult for the better player, easier for the weaker player, better looking and cheaper to maintain.   

[Matt MacIver]

I did this yesterday, was 30ft away in the sand and putted it to 6 ft!  The sand is firm, sadly almost non-existent with red clay beneath, so getting a wedge under and through is no picnic. The lip was 4-5 inches - so while I knew it was possible to pull the shot off there was a strong chance of leaving it in the bunker if I didn't hit it hard enough...and too hard it'd roll past the pin and off the green, etc. but it's great to have that option and fun when you pull it of.

[Jon Wiggett]

In my view, bunkers are the most overrated and misused hazards in the game of golf. I watched The Cadillac Championship yesterday on television. The bunkering at Doral's Blue Monster is so over the top and ugly, that it hurts the eyes. Too often bunker are used to make mediocre designs look interesting or dramatic.


If bunkers are used, they should be real traps, like the original ones on links courses. Skill is necessary to avoid and escape them. The opportunity to putt out of a shallow bunker doesn't make any sense. If you want to give players this opportunity, build grass bunkers, Valley of Sin like depressions or run-off areas. More difficult for the better player, easier for the weaker player, better looking and cheaper to maintain.

The point Martin makes that I have underlined is one the things many current GCAs seem not to realise and hence the over use of bunkers on modern courses.

As to the OP bunkers you can putt out of are usually useless eye candy 

Jon

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

In my view, bunkers are the most overrated and misused hazards in the game of golf. I watched The Cadillac Championship yesterday on television. The bunkering at Doral's Blue Monster is so over the top and ugly, that it hurts the eyes. Too often bunker are used to make mediocre designs look interesting or dramatic.


If bunkers are used, they should be real traps, like the original ones on links courses. Skill is necessary to avoid and escape them. The opportunity to putt out of a shallow bunker doesn't make any sense. If you want to give players this opportunity, build grass bunkers, Valley of Sin like depressions or run-off areas. More difficult for the better player, easier for the weaker player, better looking and cheaper to maintain.

I strongly disagree.  Golf is full of variety, and there is room for shallow bunkers just as much as for deep, penal ones.  As the late George Thomas pointed out, the advantage of a shallow bunker is that it makes the next shot more difficult for the player who has missed wide of the green than for the player who has just barely missed it and might be able to putt out.


Also, at a place like Tara Iti which was all sand to start with, there has to be some point where the irrigation and grassing stops and the sand starts.  Ironically, the more efficient we are in using turf, the louder some people complain about "too many bunkers" even though it is all just "through the green."


P.S.  The historian at Pasatiempo, Bob Beck, pointed out to me that in most of their old photos, it looks like the bunkers were much shallower in Dr. MacKenzie's day, as if you could have putted out of many of them.  It's hard to know if this was intended as a feature, or simply a temporary case after the sand was installed.  I do believe it was a feature of Riviera and L.A.C.C., too.  But the bunkers grew deeper over time, through natural processes [wind erosion and buildup from play] and deliberate intervention [by green chairmen who think like Martin L. does], and over time this aspect of the courses has been lost.  We thought about restoring the bunkers at Pasatiempo much shallower, but naturally, the committee didn't want to go that direction because it might make the course "easier."

[Thomas Dai]

If bunkers are used, they should be real traps, like the original ones on links courses. Skill is necessary to avoid and escape them. The opportunity to putt out of a shallow bunker doesn't make any sense. If you want to give players this opportunity, build grass bunkers, Valley of Sin like depressions or run-off areas. More difficult for the better player, easier for the weaker player, better looking and cheaper to maintain.

This is my thinking as well, but with an occasional, and very occasional exception, whereby other shots can be played if the bunker shaping is occasionally such and the player is sufficiently savvy and skillful to play it, as for example Tom mentions of Bob Charles above, or Seve's famous fairway wood from a bunker at the 1983 Ryder Cup at PGA National.


Why oh why is there no footage of Seve's shot - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Smaouo-CCRU - please someone find some footage. I'm pretty sure I can remember it being shown at the time.


Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom D,

sorry but I think your thinking is just plain wrong. Sure, if the sand is there and it occurs flush to the grass due to lack of natural growth then that's fine but it would be more of a waste area than a hazard. In my opinion, any GCA creating a feature with the knowledge it will make the hole harder for the higher handicapper and more expensive to maintain to boot has their priorities wrong.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

In my opinion, any GCA creating a feature with the knowledge it will make the hole harder for the higher handicapper and more expensive to maintain to boot has their priorities wrong.

Jon

You're going to have to break that one down for me.


First of all, pretty much ANY feature on a course will make it harder for the higher handicapper. 


Are you saying a shallow bunker is harder for the high handicapper but not the low handicapper?  I think that's wrong, too ... giving the high handicapper a chance to putt out of a bunker is a much bigger advantage to them than it is to players who are good out of bunkers anyway.


Also, the feature in question at Tara Iti is a sandy waste.  It's less expensive to maintain than the grass, which requires irrigation, mowing, etc.  The sand at Tara Iti just requires regular weeding.  They don't even rake their bunkers, and the sandy pockets are all pretty small so the incidence of washouts is likely contained.

[Jon Wiggett]

In my opinion, any GCA creating a feature with the knowledge it will make the hole harder for the higher handicapper and more expensive to maintain to boot has their priorities wrong.

Jon

You're going to have to break that one down for me.


First of all, pretty much ANY feature on a course will make it harder for the higher handicapper. 

Agreed, and that is why you have a handicap where the lesser accomplished player is helped with extra shots. The problem with greenside bunkers is they offer no real challenge for the low handicap player (2 or below) but are much tougher for the higher handicapper when compared to a short mown hollow which is much easier than the bunker shot for the higher handicapper but trickier for the low handicapper. Is it not better that a course offers a fun experience for the higher handicapper whilst giving a the low handicapper a decent challenge rater than misery for the one and boredom for the other?


Are you saying a shallow bunker is harder for the high handicapper but not the low handicapper?  I think that's wrong, too ... giving the high handicapper a chance to putt out of a bunker is a much bigger advantage to them than it is to players who are good out of bunkers anyway.

To the first question the answer is obviously yes. To the statement you make afterward it might only be true if the sand is hard packed but if the sand is soft then judging an putt out with any control is not easy and though it might be easier for the higher handicapper than a bunker with a lip it is still a much easier for the low handicapper


Also, the feature in question at Tara Iti is a sandy waste.  It's less expensive to maintain than the grass, which requires irrigation, mowing, etc.  The sand at Tara Iti just requires regular weeding.  They don't even rake their bunkers, and the sandy pockets are all pretty small so the incidence of washouts is likely contained.

Agreed but than I never questioned that as it is not a bunker. I think the idea of not raking the bunkers is great and hopefully will be picked up by more places in the future

[Tom_Doak]

Agreed but than I never questioned that as it is not a bunker. I think the idea of not raking the bunkers is great and hopefully will be picked up by more places in the future

To be fair, we were able to try this out at Tara Iti because


(a)  It is a course that has very light day-to-day traffic, so the bunkers don't get trampled too badly, and
(b)  The fairways are mostly generous, to the point that if players stray into the sand, they can accept some responsibility for a bad lie there.


As I remember, Mike Clayton convinced Richard Sattler to try having no rakes in the bunkers at Barnbougle, back when it opened, but that didn't last long, because there were lots of retail golfers complaining about it   

[Cliff Hamm]

Here is are two pictures of the hole that was the impetus for the thread:








I find putting out of a bunker to be one of the most satisfying shots in golf.  When you pull it off you almost feel like you cheated the course. On this particular hole there is a steep bank down to the green.  It's all about distance control.  And yes I am testament to the fact that a shallow bunker is easier for a high handicapper when you can putt

[Sean_A]

I confess that I have no time for bunkers which are so shallow that the best way out is to putt...whats the point?  The putter is already a major part of the game...is there a need add to bunker play? A bunker that isn't deep enough to hold a shot is half-ass job and should be either dug deeper or eliminated.  Features in the name of diversity can only be taken so far. 


Ciao

[Cliff Hamm]

 The best way out is not necessarily to putt. It is simply an alternative. In essence isn't this the allure of links golf?  You can hit tkhe ball in the air or play the  ground game.  What is best for one golfer is not necessarily what is best for another. Having alternative ways of play is not a bad thing

[Sean_A]

The best way out is not necessarily to putt. It is simply an alternative. In essence isn't this the lure of links golf?  You can hit tkhe ball in the air or play the  ground game.  What is best for one golfer is not necessarily what is best for another. Having alternative ways of play is not a bad thing

Sometimes (and I believe for bunkers this should be the case), there should only be one play available.  For the best courses, options should not exist for all situations. This is also why I don't think courses should have 100 bunkers...golfers are dictated to too often. Cut the number of bunkers down, make them horrible things and place them better.  In other words...archies should do a proper job of it 


Ciao

[Brett Wiesley]

The potential for this shot, when done correctly or intentionally is very cool.  I played out of one at Bandon Trails that left putting out as an option, but it could have been played either way.  It was on #15, I was a bit too aggressive at the back pin and crept a few feet into the back bunker.  It is a very slick slope from the back of the upper portion of this green.  Putting was risky as the sand is not hard packed, and I could have come up lame in the bunker, but it made it out, and then raced down the slope.

[Joe Hancock]

I'm going to go against Sean's position on this based on variety of presentation and conditions, in that sometimes the smart golfer can outplay the more accomplished golfer by recognizing the different options. Having the brains to go with their strengths when faced with such variety should not go unrewarded, and the puttable bunker, as rare as it is, shouldn't be poo poo'd just because it isn't perceived as difficult.

[Will Peterson]

It doesn't add much to the conversation, but I have to tell the story anytime someone mentions putting out of a bunker.


One of the best shots of my HS career was a putt out of a bunker.  The 18th at Edelweiss Golf Chalet in New Glarus, WI is a short par 4 with a green that sits on a shelf halfway up a hill.  The green has two tiers and is sloped pretty heavily front to back.  Behind the green is a small flat bunker that sits about 2 feet above the green.  It is basically impossible to keep the ball on the upper shelf from the trap.  It is common knowledge that you cannot go long on 18.  On this day the pin was back on the upper shelf and despite knowing you cannot go long, I hit it into the back bunker.  As I walked up to my ball, I saw all the coaches and some players sitting on top of the hill.  You could see the disappointment on the faces of my coach and teammates.  When I got to the ball, it was obvious that there was basically no sand in the trap and the rough on the slope had not had a chance to grow that spring.  I pulled my putter, and saw my coach cover his face with his hands and the other coach start to laugh.  I could hear the thoughts, "what is the number 1 player doing with a putter in the bunker!" I hit the putt and the ball just barely made it out of the bunker, bounced down the hill, slowly trickled onto the green and rolled to about 6".  I looked up the hill and saw my coach laughing and the other coach with his head in his hands.  Routine par, what else would you expect?

[mike_beene]

I saw Dave Stockton putt out of a back bunker on 9 at Colonial years ago. Probably firmer sand then but it was not flat and it surprised me.

[Sean_A]

I'm going to go against Sean's position on this based on variety of presentation and conditions, in that sometimes the smart golfer can outplay the more accomplished golfer by recognizing the different options. Having the brains to go with their strengths when faced with such variety should not go unrewarded, and the puttable bunker, as rare as it is, shouldn't be poo poo'd just because it isn't perceived as difficult.

Joe


Its not the difficulty issue to which I object.  First, its the idea that in the name of so called diversity that more bunkers can be built.  Courses are already over-bunkered.  I have no qualms if a guy wants to whack a putter out of a bunker which wasn't designed for such.  I do have issues with creating more reasons to have more bunkers.  Second, placid bunkers generally don't enhance the aesthetics of a course.  Bunkers are used as visual features as much as anything, why have ugly man-made features?


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I can see how from the photos that Cliff has now posted how putting is possible over some points of the bunker lips, not at all points though.


The height/type/width of grass between the bunker and the green would also need to be factored in prior to playing the shot.



Worth mentioning also that putters now have less loft than they once had.


Atb

[Niall C]

I confess that I have no time for bunkers which are so shallow that the best way out is to putt...whats the point?  The putter is already a major part of the game...is there a need add to bunker play? A bunker that isn't deep enough to hold a shot is half-ass job and should be either dug deeper or eliminated.  Features in the name of diversity can only be taken so far. 


Ciao

Sean


What about bunkers that offer options ? Was it MacKenzie or Simpson who wrote about being able to putt out of a bunker and that in doing so the player should not be playing directly at the hole whereas a direct approach to the hole would require a conventional bunker shot. Kind of like a risk reward scenario.


The other aspect to putting out of bunkers is the nature of the sand. Pictures of early MacKenzie bunkers such as at Alwoodley suggest that there was more dirt/gravel than loose soft sand that you sink in to. Persoanlly I'd quite like to see more of the former in bunkers.


Niall

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