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Mark_Fine

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2016, 08:44:48 PM »
Sven,
Maybe I should phrase my comment differently.  I often find references of different architects receiving credit for the same course.  I was just recently called in as a expert witness regarding claims about a "Ross" design or so it was claimed.  I am not free to state the name of the course but several architects were cited as the "original" designer.   I also just completed a project in CA that was originally believed to be a Watson design and cited as such in numerous articles.  However, we found an original routing drawing by Robert Hunter.  It does happen more than you might think.   

Even here with Lawrenceville; it is still not crystal clear who did what for sure.  I think if we took a vote, there would be multiple opinions.  We have several names in the mix. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2016, 10:51:56 PM »
Mark:


I agree that there is still a lot of confusion out there as to who did what.  That is different than architects claiming other's work as their own.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2016, 09:12:39 AM »
I think possibly the most useful bit of information right now would be to find out who took over after Swan left in 1898. Who exactly was the Mr. Dunn referenced as the instructor in 1901?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2016, 11:19:23 AM »
Mike:

I'd add in the 1900 Harper's Report.  As I mentioned to Mark, the information published in Harper's came from the clubs themselves (they submitted a form), so someone at Lawrenceville must have been under the impression that Seymour Dunn had done something.

I think you're also making a bit of a leap to assume that the 6 holes discussed in the Jan. 1897 article had been laid out by Swan, or that he was even hired at some point in 1896.  Not saying either of those aren't the case, just that I don't think the language in that article confirms either point.

Sven




Sven

Sven,

It seems from the Harper's entry that Seymour Dunn is associated with Lawrenceville at the time this was written, around 1900 and after the departure of James Swan.   This would make sense and seems congruent with the 1901 mention of a "Mr. Dunn" as golf instructor in the school newspaper.

Seymour Dunn was born March 11th, 1882 in North Berwick.   If he had indeed laid out the Lawrenceville golf course in summer of 1896 he would have been all of 14 years old at the time; he was no doubt precocious, but that seems odd in the sense of freshman ranking at a prestigious boarding school.

Here is what is written about Dunn in the www.northberwick.co.uk website, which places his visit to Lawrenceville in summer 1897, some time after it is announced that James Swan would do the work earlier that year and was in fact hired for that purpose.   It should be mentioned that by this time Swan had been pro at St. Andrews and Shinnecock where it was reported that he made design "improvements" at both those courses and had also laid out a course for the Elkridge Club in Maryland, so he certainly was the more experienced of the two.

SEYMOUR G. DUNN

 SEYMOUR GOURLAY DUNN described as 5'11", with fair hair, blue eyes, and a thistle tattooed on his forearm. He was 15 years old when he first visited the USA in June 1897. During that vacation he laid out a nine-hole course at Lawrenceville School in New Jersey. The first indoor golf school was instigated by Seymour Dunn in the Bourne Hall Hotel, Bournemouth. In 1899 Seymour was appointed pro at the Societe Golf de Paris and laid out several courses in Europe including the first golf course in Belgium at Royal Ostend G.C. (1903); Royal Golf Club de Belgique (1906) for King Leopold of Belgium; a course in the Rothschild Estate, France (1908); a course for King Emmanuel of Italy (1908) and another course at Royal Zoute G.C in Belgium (1909).

 In 1904 Seymour was pro at Royal County Down, Nothern Ireland and in 1906 he spent the summer at Lake Placid, New York, an area he would be associated with for the remainder of his career and where he would later meet his wife Elizabeth Maxwell. The following year he emigrated to the USA permanently and joined his uncle Willie Dunn Jnr. at Van Cortlandt Park G.C. In 1907, Seymour was appointed pro at the Wykagyl G.C, Rochelle, NY and in 1909 he laid out the course at Lake Placid Resort G.C. where he moved the following year. Seymour set up a mail order company distributing golf equipment all over the States stamped with his trade mark of a 'Crown and Banner' bearing the legend 'Vi et Arte'.


I have to admit that I let me subscription to ancestry.com lapse some years ago but it might be interesting to track down Seymour's travel to the states during that time.   The Harper's article you posed certainly sounds like he was at the Lawrenceville School in 1900 as the instructor.

I also find it odd that there is not a single mention of Dunn in the school newspaper during the creation of the course in the 1897 timeframe and there is no mention of him until 1901 in that publication.   That seems consistent with John Stout's recollection that "a subsequent professional", Seymour Dunn expanded the course around the turn of last century.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 11:24:59 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2016, 11:34:59 AM »

I attended the school from 1976 to 1980 and some of your info does not quite correspond to what is there, but I do not see it as that relevant. The infirmary was there when I got there and it borders the (current) 9th fairway. It has now expanded substantially.

Ian,

Here's more regarding the location of the Infirmary.   As mentioned, the original infirmary circa 1910 was on a farmhouse in the middle of today's golf course.   By 1929 it was moved to the new "McPherson Hall building where it stayed until 1976.   

From 1929 to 1976, the Lawrenceville School Infirmary, as it was then known, occupied the Georgian style building that is now McPherson House. In 1931, the mothers of boys in the school created the Ladies Auxiliary to the Lawrenceville School Infirmary. With the creation of Parents at Lawrenceville in 1975, the Ladies Auxiliary became the Infirmary Committee, a support organization open to fathers and mothers of Lawrenceville students.

I found that info at the school online archive Bret earlier pointed us to at http://stephanarchives.org/doing-research/collections/finding-aids/document-collections/parents-at-lawrenceville-records-finding-aid/
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2016, 11:48:34 AM »
Sven,

I looked up the Harpers 1901 issue and it seems Mr. Seymour G. Dunn was indeed the golf instructor at the school during those years.   I suspect he further developed the course during his tenure but then took some liberties with the original attribution and year, perhaps looking to make a name for himself in the states.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2016, 12:06:27 PM »
Mr. Swan seemed to have been in a bit of a pickle in 1900, as well, although it's doubtful this Princeton area scandal had anything to do with the omission of his attribution from the 1900 Harper's account. 

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2016, 12:17:45 PM »
   I suspect he further developed the course during his tenure but then took some liberties with the original attribution and year, perhaps looking to make a name for himself in the states.



Mike,


Not only is this speculation, but its speculation in which you assign nefarious intent to one of the players. 


Dunn was in the states as early as 1897 when he was 15 and his activities were being reported on by the papers.  However young he was, he was a known entity.


We also have no idea who it was that filled out the information on the form and sent it in to Harper's.  At a regular club, it most likely would have been one of the officer's, not the professional.  Not sure why you are assuming it was Dunn.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2016, 12:23:38 PM »
Nothing nefarious Sven.  Perhaps a simple mistake based on Dunn's development of the course after Swan's departure.  Call it my idle speculation based on the contemporaneous reports we've seen to date.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2016, 01:45:47 PM »
It appears that the first golf played at Lawrenceville was not on the land of the present course but over near McPherson House in the "Green Field".

The school paper reported on February 24th, 1894;

The game of golf has a few en-thusiasts in the School and is played daily on the Green Field.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2016, 02:02:57 PM »
Sven,

The first report of Seymour Dunn in the US I can find has him arriving in the US the weekend of June 5th/6th 1897, where he is to assist his brother John Duncan Dunn at Ardsley.   By the end of July of that year he is moving on to become the pro at Hollywood, NJ.   In 1898 he is at Mahopac in NY.

According to the Lawrenceville School paper, from his obit, James Swan came to the school's employ in 1896 and left in June 1898.   From an article in June 1897 of that year;

At the beginning of the School year, such an interest was taken in golf that the Head Master saw fit to engage a regular instructor for the School. He chose Mr. Swan, who had until then been at the St. Andrews links. After considerable trouble he laid out a course of nine holes, and since then has regularly instructed the boys in the use of the sticks, &c. The only match play "this year was one with Lakewood, and resulted in a defeat for us by the ~ score of 26-2.

It is not yet known when Dunn came to Lawrenceville but we've now established that he was instructor there sometime after Swan and we know he was there in the 1900-01 timeframe.   In October of 1898 it was reported that "three new holes" had been created, so perhaps he had something to do with that?   

By the way, the June 1st 1952 issue has a terrific picture of the 1897 golf team at Lawrenceville that includes Mr. Swan.   I haven't yet figured how to reproduce the articles intact from that site so I'd appreciate if someone could perhaps post the pic here.   Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:06:06 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2016, 02:25:16 PM »
I was able to get a grainy copy of the same picture, less the caption, from May of 1925.

The match between Lakewood and Lawrenceville was billed as the first Inter-scholastic match in the country.   James Swan is third from the left in the back row.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill Crane

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2016, 02:30:53 PM »
Mr. Swan seemed to have been in a bit of a pickle in 1900, as well, although it's doubtful this Princeton area scandal had anything to do with the omission of his attribution from the 1900 Harper's account. 



AHH!

Scandal and Theft on College Road !! 

Horrors.

Bill
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2016, 02:50:33 PM »
Here's a better reproduction of that photo from the 1952 issue;




In 2006 this vintage photo of the golf course was published with a caption reading;

James Swan, who was hired in 1897 to layout the golf course, also designed Long Island's Shinnecock Hills Golf Course. 

I'll have to go back and look but wasn't there speculation not too long ago regarding Swan and any involvement in the early iterations of Shinny?  He seemingly had a close relationship with Willie Dunn so perhaps he was involved with construction of Dunn's course?

« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:59:13 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2016, 05:22:01 PM »
Mike,
I emailed you.  When I get back in the country let catch up. Sorry no time to post till then. 
Thanks,
Mark

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #90 on: March 11, 2016, 09:06:32 PM »
Here is an article mentioning Seymour Dunn playing the bagpipes with the Glee Club in 1899. I wonder if the Official Golf Guide misprinted the date as June 1896 instead of June 1898.  Seymour Dunn also held the professional record for the same nine hole course as Archie Reid.  The course was only 6 holes prior to October 1898.  I will keep looking for more suitable golf references.



This article is from January 1896 and sounds like there is no course on the property at the time of this writing.

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2016, 10:20:08 PM »
Here is another mention of Seymour G. Dunn at Lawrenceville in the 1899-1901 timeframe

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2016, 10:18:01 AM »
Great stuff Bret.  I'm pretty confident we have this one well detailed now, thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2016, 02:22:23 PM »
I am still traveling but would love to connect with several of you next week.  I have not had time to study some of the new info you guys have found but it seems the facts are coming out. 

Mark_Fine

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2016, 08:43:39 AM »
We are getting close  :)   On top of all the info posted here, there were at least six or seven people who contacted me as a result of this post.  Shows the power of GCA and the positives this site can have for golf and golf courses!  Thanks to all.

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2016, 12:07:50 PM »
Mark,

Agreed that this is a terrific example of how GolfClubAtlas can be used for positive, collaborative efforts.   It was a great idea putting this out there for us research hounds to pursue.

As we discussed, here is an updated effort to list the chronology based on what we've learned to date.   Others please feel free to criticize or comment if you feel something here is either unproven or based on shaky analysis.   Thanks.

Chronology as best as I can account;

1892 - 1895 - John Reid Jr. lays out a few holes near a baseball batting cage (near the Infirmary) in a field near willows.  An 1894 school newspaper article mentions that they are playing in "Green Field", which is near the McPherson House, which served as the Infirmary from 1929 to 1976.   The infirmary originally was in a house that may still exist to the right of today's 3rd hole as was first used for that purposed around 1910.   In 1929, however, a new infirmary was built that is today the "McPherson House" used for girls' housing, almost due south from today's golf course and very close to the area known as "Green Field". The article mentioning that Reid and friends played near the infirmary was from 1953, consistent with the timing and location of the McPherson House.  It was used as an infirmary until 1976 when a building close to today's 9th hole became the new infirmary.   

1895/1896 - It seems from a number of accounts that after John Reid Jr. graduated in spring of 1895 that golf went dormant in terms of a formal course, although the seed he planted seems to have generated continued interest.  Strangely, one later account from the 1950s indicates that a ""Nat" Reid", who came to "Davis House" in "94 or 95" and a few friends laid out a few holes with tomato cans on land north of the creek that runs parallel to a road on pasture land at the time owned by "Mr. Mershon".   This same article mentions that this would be the creek intersecting today's 1, 2, and 3rd holes.   Besides John Jr., the only other son of John Reid to attend L'ville was Archie Reid, who attended from 1897 through 1901 and was captain of the golf team during the years Seymour Dunn was golf instructor.   Like Dunn, he was evidently terrific at playing bagpipes.   I suspect that the Reid in question was actually John Jr. and it's very possible that during his time at L'ville that he and his friends played makeshift golf on both the land of "Green Field" as well as some of the land north on today's golf course, at the time owned by Mr. Mershon.

1896 - James Swan is brought on as golf instructor and a January 1897 article mentions that enough land has been purchased for a full golf course according to "Dr. Mackenzie" who seemed to be the driving force.   It is reported that Swan laid out a six hole course that could easily be expanded to nine holes, which happened before 1900.  I suggested to Mark that he should track down the land purchase from 1896/97 that permitted the creation of the new course and it would be interesting to see if it was Mr. Mershon's land.  In any case, Mr. Swan left in June of 1898 and was followed shortly after by Seymour G. Dunn, who first came to the US in June of 1897, working subsequently with his brother at Ardsley before moving on that summer to Hollywood and then to Mahopac (NY) the following year before ending up at Lawrenceville.

1899 - 1901 - It's difficult to tell if Swan's course was ever expanded to nine holes but according to an account of John Stout, the course was expanded around the turn of last century by the next pro, Seymour Dunn.   A 1900 Harper's account detailed the nine hole course and said they were designed by Seymour Dunn in 1896, which seems problematic given other known dates.   Another 1901 report mentions that plans to create a new, much longer nine hole addition to the first nine were under consideration (but never implemented).  I think it is likely that Dunn expanded Swan's course to nine holes, probably lengthening it as well to just under 3000 yards.

1906 - New pro and instructor James Norton makes additional changes and improvements and his work creates a course of about 3000 yards.

Summer 1924 - Lower School Bldg. completion requires the 9th hole to be altered.   In the same year it was determined to move the tennis courts to the 1st and 9th fairway.   Two new holes had to be constructed to the East and South of the Rufus Dawes House.

Oct 1925 - A report that the two holes have been added includes the info that the old remaining holes were "divided up", leaving a new "7 hole course".   It is most likely that John Stout, golf instructor since 1916,  was responsible for those changes.

June 1930 - The second hole becomes the 1st to locate the 1st tee closer to locker rooms.

1934 - John Stout develops and implements a much revised course of nine holes by moving further east towards the Progress Golf Club.   His course is also about 3000 yards.

1947 - The creation of a Central Heating Plant on the 8th fairway requires the elimination of two holes, now making Stout's course again a 7-hole affair.

1953 - William Gordon plans a nine hole course, keeping holes 1-3, and hole 7 of Stout's course in the plan.   

I'm not 100% certain but it does seem very possible that the 1st 3 holes are original to Swan's course, and possibly Reid Jr.'s.   Those holes ARE there in a 1931 aerial prior to Stout's 1934 work.

Hope this helps!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2016, 12:32:19 PM »
As it turns out, the land that facilitated the golf course was indeed purchased from the Mershon family, although in 1892.   The stone house adjacent to today's 3rd hole was a relatively  famous residence as well as serving as the first school infirmary in 1910.   Some great info can be found here;   

http://www.mershonassoc.com/mershonassoc/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=37JBvoZA35U%3D&tabid=70&mid=406
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #97 on: March 24, 2016, 09:19:28 PM »

Here are a few more articles from 1897 mentioning the golf course.  The first article was written in January, one week after the article Mike posted, explaining Swan had been hired by the school.  The last paragraph contains a tidbit of info that Mark has been able to locate and he is awaiting its arrival.



The second article is from March explaining some slight changes:



The third article from June mentions the hiring of Swan at the beginning of the school year.  However, they also mention a nine hole course?


Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2016, 09:41:35 PM »

Here are two more articles from 1898.  The first article from April mentions the promise of a nine hole course.  It also reiterates that golf was attempted several times at the school before it caught on.



The second article Mike mentioned in an earlier post, but I thought I would post it. This article describes the addition of three new holes being open in October. 

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?
« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2016, 10:00:32 PM »
Mike:

I'd add in the 1900 Harper's Report.  As I mentioned to Mark, the information published in Harper's came from the clubs themselves (they submitted a form), so someone at Lawrenceville must have been under the impression that Seymour Dunn had done something.




Sven





I find it strange that the 1900 course was 500 yards longer than the 1901 course.
Not one hole from 1901 is the same distance as the year prior?