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Peter Pallotta

Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« on: March 02, 2016, 04:28:48 PM »
Please excuse this open display of warm sentimentality, but to this day Joe is still the only gca.com member I've ever actually played golf with -- and I consider him a good friend and a fine fellow, and a very talented and committed craftsman.

So today, it was with genuine pleasure that I came across an article that confirmed my assumptions about what the "industry" thinks and feels about Joe.  The article is about Todd Eckenrode's course in Louisiana, The Country Club at the Golden Nugget.  I don't know much about Todd E's work in general or anything about this course in particular, but as I was reading along I got to the following quote -- an architect (Todd E) praising his associate (my friend, Joe H):

"By working closely with our lead shaper Joe Hancock, who handled all of the greens, bunkers, surrounds and contouring, we took great care to make each green unique, reflective of the shot and effect desired. These may be some of our finest original greens to-date, and it is Joe Hancock that is to be commended. It's a course golfers will never tire of, and one they'll want to experience again, and again."

As I say, I don't know much about Todd E, but as when Tom D does it here, it speaks well of him as a person and a professional that he can be so generous with/about his team.  If folks have played the course, I'd like to hear your views.  Mostly, though, I just wanted to tip my hat publicly to Joe H. 

(Btw: I'm not going to say that Joe often turns to me for design advice or that, in my own quiet understated way, I have taught him much of what he knows about gca -- but I think anyone who has read my thoughts on here over the years can see the influence...)

The article can be found here: www.thegolfwire.com/story/324347

Peter

« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 07:17:04 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2016, 05:34:31 PM »
Very nice, Peter, and thanks for the link to the article. Like you, I'm happy to see Joe's work being praised by his peers. Last year about this time he and Trixie stopped on their way through and had lunch with me and afterward Joe and I walked "a few holes" on my mom and dad's place, kicking around dreams and ideas and avoiding the occasional cow pie. ;D  As they like to say here on GCA ... St Alberts, one day.


Hey Joe, fetchez la vache!








Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2016, 06:23:05 PM »
Way to go,
Grandpa Joe!

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BCowan

Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2016, 06:35:04 PM »
Great post Peter!  Great to hear Joe get some well deserved praise.  Joe has a deep connection to the game and I can't think of many folks I'd rather have a beer with  :)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2016, 06:37:52 PM »
Best shaper since Bob Mackie. His claim to fame, introduced me to Brad Klein.

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2016, 06:40:03 PM »

Well done Joe (and Peter).

According to Eckenrode, one of the most distinct features of the golf course is the collection of waste bunkers. "The waste bunker concept was functional in one sense, creating low areas outside of turf that could tolerate periodic flooding," said Eckenrode. "It would have been easy to make these areas water or swampland but that would have made the course just like every other course in the lowlands. By creating vast, sweeping waste bunkering throughout, we were able to achieve a drainage solution by utilizing hazards strategically while also enhancing aesthetics."


Joe, are you able to expand on the waste bunker story? In general terms how often would flooding occur? With this in mind, how are the bunkers treated - does the native sandy ground extend to the waste areas? Also, given that contamination would typically result from flooding what influence does this have on maintenance regimes and play? Do large areas require restoration after a flood event?


Thanks for your comments.
Lyne

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2016, 07:11:52 PM »
Toured Rolling Green with Joe a few years ago. He had more good ideas than anyone since Ron Forse, who had the original designs available.
AKA Mayday

Peter Pallotta

Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2016, 07:14:34 PM »
Best shaper since Bob Mackie. His claim to fame, introduced me to Brad Klein.

As you may know, Joe does a pitch-perfect imitation of Carol Burnett as Nora Desmond. That's because years ago I'd sent him to study under Bob Mackie, intuiting (way back in the 1970s) that bunker shapes would soon be influenced not by clouds but by costumes. It took a while before I was proven right, but now...well, humility prevents me from saying any more. Btw, Joe also does a great impression of Tim Conway as that short little golfer.     

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2016, 08:11:41 PM »
 8)  Peter,


Where did you play with Joe??? Did he lure you to The Mines in Grand Rapids??  Some fine work there too!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2016, 08:34:00 PM »

Well done Joe (and Peter).

According to Eckenrode, one of the most distinct features of the golf course is the collection of waste bunkers. "The waste bunker concept was functional in one sense, creating low areas outside of turf that could tolerate periodic flooding," said Eckenrode. "It would have been easy to make these areas water or swampland but that would have made the course just like every other course in the lowlands. By creating vast, sweeping waste bunkering throughout, we were able to achieve a drainage solution by utilizing hazards strategically while also enhancing aesthetics."


Joe, are you able to expand on the waste bunker story? In general terms how often would flooding occur? With this in mind, how are the bunkers treated - does the native sandy ground extend to the waste areas? Also, given that contamination would typically result from flooding what influence does this have on maintenance regimes and play? Do large areas require restoration after a flood event?


Thanks for your comments.
Lyne

Lyne,

Todd would be better able to speak about the genesis of the waste bunkers, but in short it was a functional way of shedding water off vast areas of playing surfaces during the periodic heavy rainfalls they receive in that neck of the woods. The waste areas are, obviously, the low points of the course, so a lot of the main drainage is in these areas, always surrounded by some sort of disguise of turf or other vegetation. Any contamination that occurs (grass clippings, soils(although the fairways are all sand-capped, so not too much)) just get re-incorporated when large areas need restoring. Because they area truly waste areas, the contamination isn't a factor like it would be in a formal bunker. All the waste areas discharge slowly (due to weirs and collapsible valves) into the nearby waterway. The idea is to use the golf course as a detent for storm water rather than accelerating runoff through overly engineered pipe sizing.

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

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Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2016, 08:35:59 PM »
Peter,

As my editor in chief an Senior Design Educator, you are hearby designated to answer any and all questions that are over my head!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2016, 08:47:56 PM »
Joe - I purposely let you answer Lyne's question instead of jumping in first because I think it's good for your professional development and self esteem to now, finally, stand on your own two feet.  And as your mentor, I say to you: don't let negative thinking ("questions that are over my head") derail your progress; you can only snatch the pebble from my hand if you believe you can. Btw, I regret having to make this all so public, Grasshopper, but you pushed me into it.   

Steve - actually, the first course we played together was the one Joe owned and managed and renovated and maintained himself; it was a marvel to see how healthy the turf was at (what was) a modest mom-and-pop operation. But yes, the second course we played was The Mines -- I thoroughly enjoyed it, and it was/is the most inexpensive gca education and history lesson imaginable.

Eric - now that I'm at it, I might as well tell you that I'd sketched out for Joe - before he came to see you -- several potential routings for St Alberts. My personal favourite would see a Par 72 course measuring some 6800 yards, with 16 Par 4s, one Par 5 and one Par 3. There is great variety in the Par 4s - 2 are under 300 yards and 2 are under 350 yards, but several are over 450 yards (call them "half pars" for the egg heads and purists). 

Peter 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 09:09:15 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2016, 10:03:27 PM »
Hi Peter
I have seen these greens in person, with Joe as my guide.
They are excellent, artistically shaped and presented, varied, interesting, and looked like fun to play.
Joe is very thoughtful and lots of fun to collaborate with.
Keep up the great work Joe!
Congratulations
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 10:06:05 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2016, 01:12:58 AM »
Geez, he as been called "grandpa Joe" so long, he must be closing in on, or arrived, as GreatGrandpa Joe.  ::) ;D

What is the longer anticipated amount of time that after a significant rain event, water would be standing in those water retention-waste bunker areas?  What is the deepest part of any of those bunkers relative to the average river water level where the release ultimately flows from the waste bunkers?  Wouldn't some of those waste bunker areas actually be lower than the river runoff level?  If so, is stagnant water in the lowest areas a health or just foul smell issue.  Mosquito breeding issues?  Were cuts to scoop out the waste areas, used for tees and other feature shapes?

I'm sure as a grandpa, you are used to answering a million dumb questions from curious little minds, Joe.  8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2016, 08:39:46 AM »
Dick,

I'm used to answering questions about things like boogers, broken toy weapons, NERF darts and toads. As all 7 grandkids are boys, we don't delve into the intellectual world very often, but we do make up jokes and insult each other by calling one another bird names, like "bufflehead" or "tufted titmouse"! However, next month is expected to bring the first girl to the mix, so there's hope that things will elevate, as far as IQ goes.(In jest, of course. The boys are all smart, in a boy kind of way.)

I wasn't involved in the engineering of the waste areas, but I do remember the drain inlet levels in the waste areas are 4-4.5 above sea level, and the Calcaseiue(sp?) river is something like 2.5 feet, nominally. So, under normal, non-high tide storm events the water flows freely(other than the restriction valves in place) to the river. As far as i know there is no stagnated water for any length of time, and I would presume that only hurricane type events would cause any kind of problem with that.

Everything was built up; no scooping out of material other than ponds/ waterways that are interior to the course. Materials used to shape features were either existing sandy material that was moved very little, or imported clay to stabilize areas that were primarily composed of muck soils.

One interesting occurrence happened when the sand-cap stockpile was being depleted; we found that the sand had sunk into the native soil approximately 12 feet deep. It had to be recovered with an excavator, and more clay had to be imported to fill the void...which ended up being a conical hole, as one would expect under a conical pile!

Hope you're well, Dick. Spring is right around the corner.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2016, 01:34:48 PM »
As I say, I don't know much about Todd [Eckenrode], but as when Tom D does it here, it speaks well of him as a person and a professional that he can be so generous with/about his team.

Todd used to post on here, about 15 years ago.

Someone posting nice things about Joe Hancock is dog bites man... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2016, 03:07:39 PM »
It sounds like you have a great bunch of grandkids who will get a wonderful and imaginative growing up years with Grandpa Joe.

As for your description of the project, it sounds like one that a fellow so interested would love to play "sidewalk supervisor" to see all the interesting features and designs to address this.  I wonder if the building of a place like CC of Charleston by old Seth on such tidal plains or even Lido was similar in scope to the now modern techniques used at this project. 

It would be great if Todd would make an appearance to explain some of his challenges and solutions, as George notes Todd did so during Barona Creek construction years ago.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend Joe Hancock
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2016, 03:49:53 PM »
"I'm used to answering questions about things like boogers, broken toy weapons, NERF darts and toads."
[/size][/color]
[/size]Should this be my new signature Joe Hancock quotation?[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Great to see one of the good guys get some good pub. Thanks for posting it, Peter.[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Dan[/color]

[/size]P.S. Remove the comma in your thread title, Peter. He's not alone in that company.[/color]
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike_DeVries

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Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2016, 02:30:12 PM »
Joe,

Well deserved praise, indeed!  I know that all the work we have done together over the years may have gone unrecognized by many, but not by me.  Keep up the good work and keep asking questions!

Cheers,
Mike

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2016, 09:18:00 PM »



   All right, but apart from the Golden Nugget, and Sunningdale, and Siwanoy, and all the work he's done with Mike DeVries, and owning his own golf course, and maintaining his own golf course, and being able to slice a ball 80 yards around a tree to a tiny green, and first telling you he's going to do it, and knowing just about everything about how a golf course is made, irrigation, roads, fairways, greens, What has Joe Hancock ever done for us ?
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Peter Pallotta

Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2016, 10:45:43 PM »
Neil - thanks, you helped me realize that, in fact, I don't like Joe very much at all! 

You mention his 80 yard slice around a tree to a tiny green. With me, he "called" a 3 wood out of the light rough that soared high like a Jack Nicklaus 1 iron and 230 yards later landed like a butterfly about 8 feet from the pin.

Sure, he's a "good guy" (so-called) and a talented craftsman, but he really is quite annoying. 

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 10:50:32 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2016, 10:54:14 PM »
but he really is quite annoying. 

Peter

Finally...try going to breakfast with him...telling you how the egg was conceived or the bacon was produced....or something

Peter Pallotta

Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2016, 10:57:33 PM »
but he really is quite annoying. 
Peter
Finally...try going to breakfast with him...telling you how the egg was conceived or the bacon was produced....or something
:D
This is good. This is important. The truth hurts, yes -- but Joe wouldn't be "Joe" anymore if he got a swelled head from all the praise.... 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2016, 08:43:55 AM »
Stop. You guys are making me cry. From laughing. Because I had always hoped I was annoying you, but never realizing how successful I had been....

Now, about that egg and bacon thing....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill_McBride

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Re: Praise for my friend, Joe Hancock
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2016, 07:32:56 PM »
My only encounter with Joe was as four ball partners at Aiken Golf Club during a Dixie Cup a few years back.  We had a great time and I think we actually won our match!