Those little trees left of the 10th green at Riviera

[Joe Bausch]

Okay, I give, who is "The Lurker?"

The Lurker weighs in to Bill "Bake" McBride:

Mr. McBride, I am a former "very" regular Golfclubatlas.com participant who coined the regular remark---"Welcome to Golfclubatlas.com where every day is like a Friday night bar-room brawl in Dodge City right after the cowboys got payed"-----and a former (anonymous) Dr Katz. Figure that all out for yourself, if you please. And, also, Mr. McBride, if and when you refer to me in the future please remember to refer to "The Lurker" in caps. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. (and, by the way, if you have not yet heard the 2015 disc of some of Elvis's best voice tracks digitized in with the ultra amazing musical sound or his songs by the goll-danged 60 piece London Philharmonic Orchestra, you really need to order it like right now!!! If you need any more clues, I would prefer to let Joe B's ultra efficient sense of humor suffice).

[JMEvensky]

Okay, I give, who is "The Lurker?"

Mr. McBride, I am a former "very" regular Golfclubatlas.com participant who coined the regular remark---"Welcome to Golfclubatlas.com where every day is like a Friday night bar-room brawl in Dodge City right after the cowboys got payed"-----and a former (anonymous) Dr Katz. Figure that all out for yourself, if you please. And, also, Mr. McBride, if and when you refer to me in the future please remember to refer to "The Lurker" in caps. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. (and, by the way, if you have not yet heard the 2015 disc of some of Elvis's best voice tracks digitized in with the ultra amazing musical sound or his songs by the goll-danged 60 piece London Philharmonic Orchestra, you really need to order it like right now!!! If you need any more clues, I would prefer to let Joe B's ultra efficient sense of humor suffice).

Joe,I thought the warden took away his computer privileges.

[BCowan]

Okay, I give, who is "The Lurker?"

The Lurker weighs in to Bill "Bake" McBride:

Mr. McBride, I am a former "very" regular Golfclubatlas.com participant who coined the regular remark---"Welcome to Golfclubatlas.com where every day is like a Friday night bar-room brawl in Dodge City right after the cowboys got payed"-----and a former (anonymous) Dr Katz. Figure that all out for yourself, if you please. And, also, Mr. McBride, if and when you refer to me in the future please remember to refer to "The Lurker" in caps. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. (and, by the way, if you have not yet heard the 2015 disc of some of Elvis's best voice tracks digitized in with the ultra amazing musical sound or his songs by the goll-danged 60 piece London Philharmonic Orchestra, you really need to order it like right now!!! If you need any more clues, I would prefer to let Joe B's ultra efficient sense of humor suffice).

Joe,

  It's time for Tom Paul to come back to the Varsity team. 

[Joe Bausch]

Okay, I give, who is "The Lurker?"

The Lurker weighs in to Bill "Bake" McBride:

Mr. McBride, I am a former "very" regular Golfclubatlas.com participant who coined the regular remark---"Welcome to Golfclubatlas.com where every day is like a Friday night bar-room brawl in Dodge City right after the cowboys got payed"-----and a former (anonymous) Dr Katz. Figure that all out for yourself, if you please. And, also, Mr. McBride, if and when you refer to me in the future please remember to refer to "The Lurker" in caps. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. (and, by the way, if you have not yet heard the 2015 disc of some of Elvis's best voice tracks digitized in with the ultra amazing musical sound or his songs by the goll-danged 60 piece London Philharmonic Orchestra, you really need to order it like right now!!! If you need any more clues, I would prefer to let Joe B's ultra efficient sense of humor suffice).

Joe,

  It's time for Tom Paul to come back to the Varsity team.

More from The Lurker:

Mr. Cowan; After a certain amount of retrospection, I feel like the Varsity Team left Dodge (Golfclubatlas.com's DG) some time ago. I hung in there for quite a time, but I felt like that little kid in the movie Shane, who stood in the dusty street plaintively wailing---- "Shane, come back Shane---Shane, come back, we need you Shane." (For 50,000 bonus points what's the answer to the trivia question----who played Shane?). But if Shane ain't never gonna return to Dodge City, my advice is that you guys give the DG Star to the man who essentially controls golf in Tennessee. That would be J. Evensky (and he's got a deputy sheriff who will show all ya cowboys how-ta play golf BY THE RULES of GOLF, and in record time). Now get on back to a Varsity Team "design/strategic heritage" compare and contrast DISCUSSION on Rustic's #12 and Riviera's #10. And if you want to go for the "design/strategic heritage" gold, get into a discussion of what and who inspired George Thomas Jr's Riviera's #10 in the first place!

[Pete Lavallee]

The one big difference between Riv's #10 and Rustic's #12 is the complete lack of definition on the 12th fairway at Rustic. I once asked Geoff Shackelford if they had any plans to "spice up" the vast field that makes up the 12th fairway and I thought he was going to bitch slap me on the spot. The curious thing about the Riv's 10th is that the V shaped right side fairway bunkering tends to lure the first time golfers straight for the flag; which of course is the wrong play. Now that's a lot of work in the dirt to lure people off line. Surely those that play there regularly know that you must stay as far left as possible. There is a mound in the middle of the fairway on Rustic's 12th that makes an ideal target for a full wedge into the green; was that always there or was it constructed?

[BCowan]

Tom,

    (Mr Cowan, I'm offended, I work for a living Tom  )  Alan Ladd played Shane.  Pay no attention to Jeff, that is what I do.  You are kinda of like the main character in ''What About Bob'' sailing off the Varsity team.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrbY4hsNh64
It takes an effort to obtain humility Tom.

    Tom, at this point I try not to golf west of St Louis.  Why would I need to play the 10th at Riviera, when I got the incredible 6th at University of Michigan course, 2 miles from my abode.  Compare and contrast UofM #6 with 10th at Riviera for me please.  Last question, who has the best philly in philly? 

[Bill_McBride]

Okay, I give, who is "The Lurker?"

The Lurker weighs in to Bill "Bake" McBride:

Mr. McBride, I am a former "very" regular Golfclubatlas.com participant who coined the regular remark---"Welcome to Golfclubatlas.com where every day is like a Friday night bar-room brawl in Dodge City right after the cowboys got payed"-----and a former (anonymous) Dr Katz. Figure that all out for yourself, if you please. And, also, Mr. McBride, if and when you refer to me in the future please remember to refer to "The Lurker" in caps. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. (and, by the way, if you have not yet heard the 2015 disc of some of Elvis's best voice tracks digitized in with the ultra amazing musical sound or his songs by the goll-danged 60 piece London Philharmonic Orchestra, you really need to order it like right now!!! If you need any more clues, I would prefer to let Joe B's ultra efficient sense of humor suffice).

Oh, THAT lurker! 😀🍸😜

[Kalen Braley]

Tom Paul,

You've been "lost" far too long....It is time to make ur return!!   

[JLahrman]

I'm not a statistician but would we not expect the probability theory of normal distribution on every golf hole? In other words, a Bell Curve?

Why would there ever be a Bar Bell? I'd love to hear of an example.

I would expect the scores to resemble a Poisson distribution (which has the added advantage of being a discrete distribution).

The truncated nature of a distribution of scores on a golf hole (almost nothing less than 2) and the normal distribution's continuous property probably make it a bad distribution to apply to scores on a hole.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not a statistician but would we not expect the probability theory of normal distribution on every golf hole? In other words, a Bell Curve?

Why would there ever be a Bar Bell? I'd love to hear of an example.

I would expect the scores to resemble a Poisson distribution (which has the added advantage of being a discrete distribution).

The truncated nature of a distribution of scores on a golf hole (almost nothing less than 2) and the normal distribution's continuous property probably make it a bad distribution to apply to scores on a hole.

JLar,

Nice one, I had to look that up, but I would agree.

the following example of this is shown here:  This would look like a typical 1/2 par hole where the hole is easier....say a short and accessible par 5.

Par would be represented the black line, where you have a handful of eagles, a bunch more birdies....and then a fair number of pars, bogeys, doubles. with an average score of about 4.5

[Marty Bonnar]

Despite his ongoing absence, THE LURKER'S™ presence continues to be felt...



F.

[MCirba]

Martin,

 

I'll be seeing The Lurker this week. 

I'll be sure to give him your best.

[Bill_McBride]

Martin,

 

I'll be seeing The Lurker this week. 

I'll be sure to give him your best.

Mine too, thanks!

[Mark Sider]

Tour stats show that on this hole scores are lower when going for the green off the tee vs laying up.

[Matthew Essig]

Tour stats show that on this hole scores are lower when going for the green off the tee vs laying up.

This is true. They show that stat every year.

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest, what were the stats on the 10th at the conclusion of this years Northern Trust?
Atb

[Tom Birkert]

I would love to know more about those stats, which I think need to be further split to reflect pin position.

With a front pin, I think going for it makes a lot more sense (especially as for a lot of the pros it is a 3 wood!). With a back pin, I think the prudent play is to lay up - ideally just short left of the green, though if it is firm and fast then that is a tricky shot. Being long left with the pin at the back brings a big number into play.

Again, it depends on what the aim is. Are you looking to accept par and move on, or be aggressive?

It is possibly my favourite hole in golf, though I wonder if it would be even more dramatic if it was the 17th or 18th??

[Joe Zucker]

Tour stats show that on this hole scores are lower when going for the green off the tee vs laying up.

This is true. They show that stat every year.

This doesn't necessarily mean going for the green is the better play on average.  It might be, but it doesn't have to be.  The sample of golfers laying up and going for it are not the same.  The best golfers in the world mostly go for it (probably because they happen to be longer off the tee), but if we forced them to layup they might bring the average score of laying up down as well.


There is really no way to settle this without an experiment, but it's certainly interesting to think about.

[JLahrman]

JLar,

Nice one, I had to look that up, but I would agree.

the following example of this is shown here:  This would look like a typical 1/2 par hole where the hole is easier....say a short and accessible par 5.

Par would be represented the black line, where you have a handful of eagles, a bunch more birdies....and then a fair number of pars, bogeys, doubles. with an average score of about 4.5

The obvious problem with the Poisson distribution is that even if the mean of the distribution is set to 4 or 5, there is still a chance of getting 0. And a much higher chance of getting 1 than there is in reality. So the distribution would have to be truncated or adjusted somehow. Or maybe there is a better distribution to use. But Poisson is definitely a better starting point than a normal distribution.

[Matt_Cohn]

Tour stats show that on this hole scores are lower when going for the green off the tee vs laying up.

This is true. They show that stat every year.

And which doesn't mean you should go for the green. The guys who go for the green are generally longer than those who are laying up. The guys who go for the green might also be overall "better" than those who are laying up — hence their belief that they're good enough to take on that shot.


In other words, since it's not based on random assignment, we can't draw any conclusions.

[Mike Hendren]

This is perhaps the greatest threadjack in the history of this website.   Glad to know that Tom Paul (and the thinly veiled opportunities to patronize him) and Rustic Canyon can be worked into any thread.  Any.

Yes, the trees are stupid, both with respect to location and species.    I would assume the legendary kikuyu grass would be sufficient to thwart a deft chip from over there.   If the powers that be are dead set on a horticultural hazard over there why not go with a rose garden instead in homage to The Captain.

Bogey

[Sean_A]

Tour stats show that on this hole scores are lower when going for the green off the tee vs laying up.

How might this translate to the handicap player? 


10 years ago my mission was to expose the over-use of bunkers...and I mean when nobody was talking about it.  It would seem many archies now see bunkers for what they should and shouldn't be.  Now my mission is get people to talk about architecture from the prospective of Joe Blow.  I fail to see how talking about what the pros do has much bearing or offers much insight into how holes play 99% of the time.  I will check back in ten years to see if I get anywhere 


Ciao

[Matthew Essig]

Tour stats show that on this hole scores are lower when going for the green off the tee vs laying up.

How might this translate to the handicap player? 


10 years ago my mission was to expose the over-use of bunkers...and I mean when nobody was talking about it.  It would seem many archies now see bunkers for what they should and shouldn't be.  Now my mission is get people to talk about architecture from the prospective of Joe Blow.  I fail to see how talking about what the pros do has much bearing or offers much insight into how holes play 99% of the time.  I will check back in ten years to see if I get anywhere 


Ciao

It is also often said that the average player scores better if they just knock it down near a par 5 in two or a short par 4 in one. Their short game is good enough to get down in three and make par most of the time, but their wedge game isn't reliable enough to make par a good deal of the time from 100 yards.

The 10th green is a sliver deep from 75ish and out. I don't see how laying up is the better strategy for the vast majority of players given the green sloping away and how little area they have to work with. Is the play not to place the ball pin-high left just in the approach, no matter the hole location?