[Ian Andrew]

Questions I'm struggling with ...

What makes you an industry leader?
Is it volume of work, courses on a list, respect of your peers, methodology of work ...
The fact that you are still working ...

What makes you Influential?
Must you be a brand?
Can it only come from designing new courses?
Must you changed people's view, opened up new ideas, built a lot of courses ...

For example ... if nobody young emulates Dye or Fazio today - are they still influential?
They certainly were for a past generation - but are they now?

[Ronald Montesano]

It's not an indefinite article (a/an) but a definite one (the) that makes this claim stand out for me. Not "one of the" nor "an" industry leader, but the principal, singular, select and only one, is what is communicated by this claim.

[Mike_Young]

Questions I'm struggling with ...

What makes you an industry leader?
Is it volume of work, courses on a list, respect of your peers, methodology of work ...
The fact that you are still working ...

What makes you Influential?
Must you be a brand?
Can it only come from designing new courses?
Must you changed people's view, opened up new ideas, built a lot of courses ...

For example ... if nobody young emulates Dye or Fazio today - are they still influential?
They certainly were for a past generation - but are they now?

Ian,
You are thinking too much.  GCA was never meant to be a glamour business but real estate made it such.  Say if you were a plastic surgeon. You could be a good plastic surgeon in your hometown and no one outside of town know you until you buy an ad in the airline magazine making you one of the top 10 plastic surgeons in the world.  We are all industry leaders...but wait...there's no industry

[Ian Andrew]

Mike,

I find social media's view on golf architecture is like watching someone in a gallery walk by Chagall, Duchamp and Kandinsky to go look only at the few works of Picasso. It's not that the work is great, good or indifferent, but the person doesn't even look because its not famous.

[Scott Weersing]

Every region has the architect who built and designed lots of boring courses.


I remember growing up and it was Bob Baldock in California. http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/bob-e-baldock.html


And here in Virginia, it is Ault, Clark.


http://www.acagolf.com/acagolf/pages/project_list/Project%20Listmunicipal01-2.html


http://www.acagolf.com/acagolf/pages/project_list/Project%20Listdailyfee01-2.html


So not every property can be great and not every architect is looking to design unique, or based upon classes design strategies. Yes, it would be better if courses were more like Ireland and Scotland but good golf is better than no golf.

[Jim Sherma]

I've played a bunch of Ault/Clark courses and they are not nearly as bad as to be so simply dismissed. Are they world beaters worthy of a golf trip? Certainly not, but they are still reasonably well designed and built courses that can play interestingly and strategically if conditions are allowed to firm up.

You have to ask yourself if any of the GCA darlings would be making the lists given the land and ongoing maintenance budgets allotted to these regional architect's projects?

[Sean_A]

Jim


Thats an interesting point.  My read is that the terrain, soil and location (not to mention huge media coverage) are every bit as important as the architecture in generating the recent renaissance.  Still, it took vision from some archies and green keepers to fully realize the importance of the above which results in a much better emulation of a links experience or even creating a links experience in unusual places. This renaissance has been an engine in helping to evolve how all types of courses are presented...anything from reducing water and feed, to ripping out trees. It is all connected to this renaissance which in turn can be traced back to a handful of archies and green keepers. 


Ciao

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I find social media's view on golf architecture is like watching someone in a gallery walk by Chagall, Duchamp and Kandinsky to go look only at the few works of Picasso. It's not that the work is great, good or indifferent, but the person doesn't even look because its not famous.

I think you are right on Ian.  Just because some chef cooks great hamburgers because that is what is customers demand doesn't mean he can't grill a great Porterhouse.   

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I noticed the super was one time at Calusa Pines. I'm not familiar with Riviera but I'd assume it is a fairly high-end club that could consider several "name" options before choosing Kipp.

[John Kavanaugh]

How many of Kipp's courses are NLE? From reading this site, starting with Lido, greatness is measured by your courses that fail.

[Tom_Doak]

I think you are right on Ian.  Just because some chef cooks great hamburgers because that is what is customers demand doesn't mean he can't grill a great Porterhouse.   

The inverse is equally true, bro.  If you can cook, you can cook.


This whole thread seems pointless to me.  There are articles printed weekly in small golf magazines across the country where the writer says basically whatever the architect or developer wants him to say ... some such magazines just print the press release verbatim as "editorial".  And once it's searchable on Google, it's a fact!  So that's one way to be named "the industry's leading architect."


Hopefully most architects here care more about doing their work, than they care about what goes over Twitter, or even what's said about it on Golf Club Atlas.

[paul cowley]

...I thought I'd say something then thought again...

[John Kavanaugh]

Paul,


No one would toss their eggos at the news of you winning an award.

[paul cowley]

John...the reason I thought not to say something was because the thread was becoming a bit over my head...and your last point just sealed it!


Not sure what it means which doubly means its time for me to go!


Btw...I like regional designers and one timers for that matter. I was a one timer once (about a year) after I had told myself I would quit if I could just do one course!

[Mike_Young]

I think you are right on Ian.  Just because some chef cooks great hamburgers because that is what is customers demand doesn't mean he can't grill a great Porterhouse.   

The inverse is equally true, bro.  If you can cook, you can cook.

Amen...you can cook dude....    


And speaking of press:
 I just saw golfadvisor.com named El Cameon at Howey in the Hills #2 in country and tops in Florida...

[Bill_McBride]

I've played a bunch of Ault/Clark courses and they are not nearly as bad as to be so simply dismissed. Are they world beaters worthy of a golf trip? Certainly not, but they are still reasonably well designed and built courses that can play interestingly and strategically if conditions are allowed to firm up.

You have to ask yourself if any of the GCA darlings would be making the lists given the land and ongoing maintenance budgets allotted to these regional architect's projects?

I lived in Northern Virginia from 1983-1995 and played a number of Ault/Clark courses. It seemed they did more courses there than anybody else.  Good evaluation by Jim.  Nothing spectacular but nothing terrible.

[David Kelly]

Mike,

I find social media's view on golf architecture is like watching someone in a gallery walk by Chagall, Duchamp and Kandinsky to go look only at the few works of Picasso. It's not that the work is great, good or indifferent, but the person doesn't even look because its not famous.

So is Kipp Schulties Chagall, Duchamp or Kandinsky? Who are all, btw, pretty damn famous.

[Ian Andrew]

deleted

[cary lichtenstein]

I think this whole thread should be deleted

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