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Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2016, 09:18:38 PM »
I didn’t want to comment on this thread because I haven’t played any of the courses.  I do have a random story about Wolf Creek that might be amusing.  Just when I was learning the game, I played in an annual “grudge match” 4-on-4 event in St. George.  Four guys from Idaho against 4 tennis pros from Phoenix.  The tennis pros were viciously competitive, so fun to beat every year largely due to some good natured gamesmanship.  We played all over SG, so when a buddy with an airplane asked where four of us could play there, I set up the schedule.  Flying in (in a Cessna prop job) someone was practicing touch and goes at the airport, which sits above and adjacent to WC, so we were forced to circle around for awhile, providing us with an aerial tour.  This was before I knew much about GCA.  We were all wowed by the visuals, finally hit the ground, and called the course to see if we could play while staring at it through the chain-link airport fencing.  It had just opened and we calculated that if we paid the asking price, we could just get back in the plane and fly to Cabo.  We passed. 

I did to drive out to the course and was told about its creation.  I don’t know if any of this was true, but what I remember stuck as an interesting story.  The course was designed by the owner.  Don’t remember his name, but it struck me as sort of George Crump story of guy building his spectacular dream course.  In that part of the world—and reason the desert is considered environmentally sensitive (played as a lateral)—there exists this ancient micro soil that looks something like dark lichen on dirt.  Apparently it takes centuries to develop.  I knew about it from film shoots in places like Monument Valley, Moab, Bryce, etc.  The park rangers are quite insistent that you don’t tromp on and destroy it.  In order to build his dream course, the owner had to transport equipment and material like bunker sand by helicopter and a bunch of other restrictions.  Naturally, the course ended up costing stratospheric amounts to construct.  I think, but am not sure, that it went through the usual series of foreclosures, bankruptcies and owners as a result.  He did achieve spectacular on a beautiful, dramatic site.  Also added it to my collection of cautionary tales about sustainable golf.  Just because you can build it, doesn’t mean they will come and pay the freight.                           

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2016, 09:59:30 PM »
Great story, Dave.


I heard a similar scoop from one of the guys from the grounds crew.  He said that the owner was a rancher and he designed the course.  He also told me that the land was a favorite spot for motocross and ATV enthusiasts.  Not hard to imagine dirt bikes on that land.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2016, 11:42:38 PM »
I still don’t know why this micro soil is such a big deal.  Years of grazing, cowboys, outlaws, Indians, film crews, dirt bikes, and such, and it is still there.  I happily complied with the enviro authorities, but retain questions about PC nitpicking and common sense.  Build a golf course with helicopters?  Somebody smoking something?  The part of the story that impressed me is that he still did it.  That’s a passion I admire, but can’t explain.

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Photos via
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Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2016, 02:55:17 AM »
Thanks John, I always respected the instructions that I should not ignore a life form with much greater seniority than my own.  Who am I to freak with Mother Nature?  I'm just a guy who was born and bred in the West, where we generally take a common sense approach to land use.  I will admit to taking a fork in the road that lead to an Ivy League education and a dramatic departure from the intellectual diet of my origins.  As a geezer now, I simply revert to long term memory, what was imprinted early on, and that now seems to make some sense.  Given a choice, I don't tred on Cyanobacteria, respectfully acknowledging my elders.  I was simply trying to provide some perspective to GCA and construction.  You can't build a golf course in their world without killing them off.  My point, if any, was golf isn't for any landscape and, if allowed, shouldn't be doomed to failure by environmental restrictions.  Just say no and let the Cyanobacteria have their way.  It seems ridiculous to me that both can't exist in harmony with reason and common sense, but I'm a golfer, so what do I know?  Only that I have my own personal bias and preferences.         
 

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2016, 04:00:18 AM »
BTW, Jon, I don't wish to get into an argument about the moral or philosophical implications about my casual thread jack.  I appreciate your information to my basically uninformed post.  I'd also like to further jack this thread by saying that your photography of your course tours are simply superb.  What most don't understand is that doing such wonderful photography is the product of planning, anticipation, thought, luck, or catching the right light at the right time, a puzzle you have seemed to solved in every submission.  It's a talent and you have it.  Your words demonstrate the same judgment.  I think I can appreciate it without the talent or desire to duplicate your passion.  It is a valuable contribution to this site.  I'm a unabashed fan.  Now I really do have to turn in.  I'm going off the rail.

Dave             

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2016, 06:42:25 PM »
[quote author=Josh Tarble link=topic=62553.msg1488879#msg1488879 date=1454956190
I also thought it was a bit like Dye half-assed all his usually tropes.  After playing courses like Kiawah and Whistling Straits - both which play really great in windy conditions - Paiute seems like a generic knock-off of Dye's style.


You aren't wrong. I am fairly certain Perry Dye was the designer of Paiute. Hence it is a knock-off (with the Dye name).
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2016, 08:29:30 PM »

Of these three courses, given my experience of last week, if I had 10 rounds I would play 1 at Paiute Wolf just to experience the course in normal conditions, and play the other 9 at Sand Hollow.  It was that good, and the walk was fantastic (albeit exhausting).


After your enthusiastic write-ups of all three venues, I was surprised to see this -- but also relieved, considering how I compared Sand Hollow and Wolf Creek in my recent book.  My reservations about Wolf Creek are fairly similar to Brad Tufts' comments, but that much stronger.

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2016, 05:05:10 PM »

After your enthusiastic write-ups of all three venues, I was surprised to see this -- but also relieved, considering how I compared Sand Hollow and Wolf Creek in my recent book.  My reservations about Wolf Creek are fairly similar to Brad Tufts' comments, but that much stronger.


I tend to look for things that I like the first time around, and focus on those things.  But when it comes to a replay, then I start taking into account the opportunity cost, because I am foregoing playing a) another new course, or b) a replay that I am 100% sure that I would love.  For that reason, my standards for replays are drastically different (and higher) than new courses.  That would probably make me a really bad course reviewer/rater, but since I am neither, it works for me.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2016, 05:18:51 PM »
Matt,
That makes sense.  I still think Pauite is probably the best value in Vegas, but that's not saying much. It's a decent course but felt there was something off. 

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 03:01:52 AM »
I played Wolf Creek with my Dad when it opened and the first thing he said to me after four or five holes was asking whether this is the course where they produce the absurd / fantasy holes calendar from ...


At any rate, you'd think that with spending all that money the owner would at least ask for a professional architect's opinion before building it ...

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2016, 12:51:03 PM »
Having played Wolf Creek this week while stuck in Vegas for a day after a flight cancellation, I will emphatically agree with Jason's review. It's a course I'm glad I played once, but having seen it, I feel no desire to rush back and play it again.

And I did find it more than a little odd that the desert areas off the fairways were forbidden to even walk on, as if the building of a golf course with helicopters and heavy equipment, and the continuing maintenance of that golf course (which was as green as any I've seen in the desert outside of Shadow Creek), isn't disruptive enough.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2016, 01:26:53 PM »
You guys can count yourself lucky that the Sheriff, Matt Ward, isn't around anymore.  ;D

He'd be letting you guys have it right now, going on about how the course is exotic, and more akin to eating Thai food, instead of your normal steak and potatoes joint.

As for myself, I've driven by it more times than I can count and still haven't stopped to play it....wonder if that's saying anything. Although its the price point that chases me away vs the perception of the course...

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2016, 01:41:54 PM »
That's actually not a bad analogy. And still, I wouldn't want to eat Thai every night.
Golf Photos via
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Instagram: @linksgems

Brett Wiesley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2016, 03:33:03 PM »
+1 Cavalier


The course is so out of place, but I guess that's why it works for some folks.  It is usually so crazy windy there, and it seems like almost every tee is set on a rock precipice.  I'm surprised the course has survived, especially with their maintenance costs likely being very high.


There was an interesting issue with their greens like 3 years ago...I think the issue was one of the grounds guys applied a fertilizer at 4x the rate to be applied or something - they lost all 18 greens and had to resod them all in the middle of their prime season.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2016, 04:55:03 PM »
Wolf Creek isn't Thai food, it's things that people who can't actually find real food eat - bugs, bark, whatever... That's not meant as an insult to those poor folks, just to further flesh out the metaphor. I pity people who don't have food as an option, I don't pity anyone who would choose to play WC more than once.

I think the golf course choices are actually rather simplistic. You might as well be on a simulator. At least then you wouldn't have the vertigo issues that a few people from our group encountered.

I did smile when I read the comment from AChao's dad - I had the same thought when I played it almost 15 years ago.

It pains me a little to be so critical of an owner/operator who followed his dream, but not enough to stop me from saying it.

Speed bumps on a cart path are something that never ever should have happened.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2016, 05:06:38 PM »
George,

While I agree with your last post in concept.

If you're going to exclude courses based on dangerous cart paths, then you'd be excluding a really really good course where this happened a few years back.  ;D


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desert Days - Sand Hollow, Paiute Wolf and Wolf Creek
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2016, 01:16:47 PM »
George,

While I agree with your last post in concept.

If you're going to exclude courses based on dangerous cart paths, then you'd be excluding a really really good course where this happened a few years back.  ;D



Kalen,

poor tradesmen blame their tools and material ;) Is there a photo tour of Wolf Creek on the site as I have had a search but cannot find one.

Jon