Mrs Forman's, Musselburgh - at risk

[Mungo Park]

I am not sure how many of you this will dismay as it does me, but Mrs Forman's pub, the iconic east end marker to Musselburgh Links, has been the subject of a demolition and development proposal recently. It has just been withdrawn, but two others from the same applicant remain.

There are many stories and views of Mrs Formans, including the use of the pub by Tom Morris and the referee Robert Chambers, when the Musselburgh crowd became rather too partisan in a match with Willie Park Snr.

Mrs Forman's and the boundary wall are so much a part of Musselburgh golf iconography, it seems extraordinary that the owners don't seem to know what they have. I noticed in an earlier thread, when the racecourse extension scheme was mooted, that a number of people felt strongly about the history of Musselburgh golf.

The latest application has just gone in, and anyone can write in to the East Lothian Planners. The latest application is No 16/00059/P for "Conversion of existing restaurant / dwelling and erection of 2 houses". My concern is that the pub itself may be substantially altered and that the boundary wall, an inherent part of this historic view, is likely to be reduced in height or demolished completely. This also has safety implications for shots into the Forman's green, which would probably then have to be moved, and the hole shortened. This, in my view, would be a tragedy. Am I alone?

If you want to write to the planners expressing concern at a proposal which puts the history of golf at Musselburgh at risk, you have 21 days to do so. Once it has been validated (should be in the next few days) you will be able to view the application by going through the following process: -

Searching for a planning drawing or form
In your search engine, type ‘East Lothian Planning Applications’  -  go to ‘Simple Search’  -  type the application No 16/00059/P into the 'Search' box within the main message (not the one at top right of the page) -  click on the ‘Documents’ tag, where the drawings and application form are located  -  click on ‘View Document’ beside the drawing or form that you are interested in. There is then another tag to allow you to make your comment.

This is also where your letter will appear if you object to the scheme.

I should be interested to know if others share my view.

Mungo Park

[MCirba]

Mungo,

Thanks for bringing this situation to our attention.   I had the honor to play the old Musselburgh Links this past October and certainly Mrs. Forman's and that wall are an integral part of the experience, as you mentioned.

I am somewhat surprised that such an iconic building hasn't been somehow preserved through a historic trust?   Perhaps that's naive or impractical given how many buildings of historical value exist in Scotland?

In any case, perhaps it makes sense to craft a template letter describing the historic nature of the building from a golf perspective as well as its symmetry to the golf experience in Musselburgh and making it available here and other similar online sites?   Distributing such here may make it easier for those with simply an interest in  preservation without much actual knowledge of the particulars to participate.

Thanks again!

[Mungo Park]

Mike,
Thanks for the support - it is indeed amazing that the building and wall are not listed as of historical significance. They have been the back drop to so many great matches. I shall review the details of the latest application and do as you suggest. There is a good profile on Neil Laird's 'Scottish Golf History' web-site (see below), and I shall pull out some other references to demonstrate Mrs Forman's enduring significance.

It would make a great Musselburgh Golf Museum, particularly as much of the ground floor has already been combined into one space.

http://www.scottishgolfhistory.org/news/mrs-formans-is-no-more/

Mungo

[Alfie Ward]

Mungo,


I too, am amazed that there is no "Listed" protection on the building ! I would be equally amazed if any development was allowed to alter the superstructure of the original building (unless the building is unstable ?) nor touch in any way the "boundary" wall. But who knows with these councils ?


As I was an active opponent of the stated racecourse development years past I would happily support a petition / draft letter to try and save Mrs Formans as it exists.


btw, that racecourse dev't nearly went through and would have resulted in the vandalism of one, if not 'the', most historic pieces of golfing turf in the world, imo.


Alfie (met you at David's literati at St Andrews a while back)

[Alfie Ward]

correction Mungo - it was Gullane.


And thanks to Mike Cirba for showing your interest too !

[Jon Wiggett]

It is surprising that the golfing heritage of Scotland is not held in higher esteem here but that is the way it seems to be.
As for the application, I would not be too worried unless it is the actual owners who have made the application as anyone can apply for planning permission on any property in Scotland whether they own it or not. Even if you get planning permission it does not mean you can carry out that permission unless you own the property.

Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

I too would welcome a draft of a letter.
Thank you.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the person that owns it should be allowed to apply for planning permission for whatever he wants within the law. If the pub no longer works then it may be best to convert into dwellings.

[Mungo Park]

Alfie thanks - good to hear from you again; I know you've been here before. . . with ultimate success. In response to Jon's comments, I believe it is the owners (Punch Taverns) who are applying, through their agents.

As Adrian says, the owners have every legal right to apply for housing on the site. I know that local authorities are under pressure to find 'windfall sites' for new housing; it may well be that a housing scheme is the property's best chance of survival. However, without getting into the 'private property rights in the public domain' debate, which can go on a bit, the schemes that have been applied for so far have been fairly low on aspiration and disappointing if you care about the history of golf, or sensitive design. I think this is a 'profit maximisation' exercise without regard, or perhaps knowledge of the historical significance of its location. With a little more thought it should be possible for the owners to realise a reasonable profit without destroying historical assets. Speaking personally, I don't want to live in a museum, but I do enjoy the cultural resonance of historic buildings and landscapes, as much as I enjoy good modern design. And of course we all have as much right under the law to make representations opposing a planning application as the owner has to propose them.

Melvyn, I am afraid my e-mail has just decided to pack up! I shall check with East Lothian, and let you know when the latest application has been up-loaded. I should have it fixed tomorrow.

Mungo

[Adrian_Stiff]

Why not buy it off Punch Taverns. My Mrs works for Punch Taverns and they are under pressure from the bank to reduce their borrowings to keep the thousands of staff in work. They (Punch) on hindsight paid far the too much for many of their properties and some have a book value of 300% more than today's value thanks mainly to the downturn in the pub business and particulary the Scottish drink driving laws coupled with national tax making a pint beer £3+ whilst it can be bought in a supermarket for 50p (21p in Spain).


I love golf history, but unless someone can buy this property and just look at it, it needs to be something else.

[Alfie Ward]

Hi Tony. Hope you're well.


Mungo,


Can I suggest you get in touch with David Hamilton (if you haven't already done so) and muster some support there. I should add that I'm not against the building being restored for a new use, but I would oppose demolition ! Your suggestion of a museum is an honourable one, but I doubt if it would be practical because of ownership / funding / general or local interest. Sad, but true imo.


The site of the course was "saved" - why not the landmark that is Mrs Formans ?


btw. a builder could have that building down in no time at all. About 3 - 4 hours. Possibly tomorrow morning, if you get my drift !


Alfie

[Jon Wiggett]

Mungo,

I had not seen that in the application and if so it would not surprise me if it were passed. There has and still is a massive new estate being built across the way from Mrs. Foreman's so suspect it would be looked at favourably. Added to that the lack of interest in golf shown by East Lothian Council that I experienced a few years back I can imagine that the only thing that has saved Musselburgh Old from development is the race course.

Like Archie, I would have no problems with turning Mrs Foreman's into accommodation but would be apposed to demolition.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mungo,

I had not seen that in the application and if so it would not surprise me if it were passed. There has and still is a massive new estate being built across the way from Mrs. Foreman's so suspect it would be looked at favourably. Added to that the lack of interest in golf shown by East Lothian Council that I experienced a few years back I can imagine that the only thing that has saved Musselburgh Old from development is the race course.

Like Archie, I would have no problems with turning Mrs Foreman's into accommodation but would be apposed to demolition.

Jon

It would/should make a great B&B aimed at the golf trade near to it's original form. B&B must be one of the safest future's, but why has no one at Punch not considered it. The plans are not online yet.

[Mungo Park]

The latest application is still waiting to be validated by East Lothian - a 'wee bit of a back log', they say, so we can only wait and watch to see what the new scheme proposes. I agree with most of what has been said. Museum use is a long-shot / pipe-dream. Without another funding stream (either grant, bequest or another commercial use) it is probably a non-starter, although the National Trust for Scotland could make it into a great visitor centre / pub, telling the story of golf. Commercially, I think housing (of some sort) is the most likely, and in that case my concern is to ensure that it retains the original building, particularly the gable-end, intact and uncluttered, together with the boundary wall at full height.

Purchase from Punch Taverns is a good idea if a buyer can be found. I suspect they would be open to offers. The last purchase price mentioned was £325k, which given its location on a busy roundabout, doesn't stack up in development terms, unless you put something in the back garden - hence the present application that includes the erection of two houses.

Unless a sympathetic buyer can be found, a satisfactory new use will all be in the details of the proposed scheme, and the avoidance of any detrimental effect to the course.

Alfie, David Hamilton is fully active on this and has jointly penned a press release with Neil Laird to widen awareness. Adrian, do you know anyone to talk to at Punch Taverns?

Mungo

[Niall C]

On my one and only time playing the course I stopped off for a drink at that part of the round, partly in homage to the Morris/Park match but partly because I fancied a pint  . From what I recall of the pub it was fairly basic with little by way of golfing mementos which I must admit pleased me as I hate drinking in theme pubs.


However it also struck me that the pub didn't look as though it was doing particularly well. As Adrian has pointed out, times are tough for the licensed trade and are getting even tougher following Scottish Gov's recent legislation on drink driving. If the pub being converted to another use is the price for keeping the building wind and watertight then I'd welcome that. After all it can be converted back at a later date.


With regards the preservation of the outside of the building and the wall, it appears the Council is on the case which probably accounts for the previous application, which I assume involved an element of external reconstruction or indeed total redevelopment, being pulled. It would do no harm in any case to let the planners know your opposition to anything other than a sensitive conversion.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

The latest application is still waiting to be validated by East Lothian - a 'wee bit of a back log', they say, so we can only wait and watch to see what the new scheme proposes. I agree with most of what has been said. Museum use is a long-shot / pipe-dream. Without another funding stream (either grant, bequest or another commercial use) it is probably a non-starter, although the National Trust for Scotland could make it into a great visitor centre / pub, telling the story of golf. Commercially, I think housing (of some sort) is the most likely, and in that case my concern is to ensure that it retains the original building, particularly the gable-end, intact and uncluttered, together with the boundary wall at full height.

Purchase from Punch Taverns is a good idea if a buyer can be found. I suspect they would be open to offers. The last purchase price mentioned was £325k, which given its location on a busy roundabout, doesn't stack up in development terms, unless you put something in the back garden - hence the present application that includes the erection of two houses.

Unless a sympathetic buyer can be found, a satisfactory new use will all be in the details of the proposed scheme, and the avoidance of any detrimental effect to the course.

Alfie, David Hamilton is fully active on this and has jointly penned a press release with Neil Laird to widen awareness. Adrian, do you know anyone to talk to at Punch Taverns?

Mungo

My mate left to go to Greene King and GK are buying up a lot of Punch stuff and the deal is going on at the moment. I suspect Punch wont do much sell wise until the planning app runs its course, they would have paid for the application, architect fees and planning fee. £325K seems very expensive and not obtainable for knocking that property down and ending up with a flat new plot for two homes. I don't know Edinburgh prices but I suspect they are substantially more than Fife which I know a bit more about (though not much). In my opinion that site will make more money with that property as it is either as a large home or bed and breakfast though £325K seems toppy, it looks more £200,000.

[Niall C]

Adrian


Correct, undoubtedly more intrinsic value in the building than the land it sits on, especially when you take into account demolition costs.


As an aside, how long since the bunker in Mike's photo was last revetted ? I'm guessing it's a good bit more than 5 years.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

it would be great as a B&B though unless the course does something to attract more visitors it would be less of a golf themed one. The problem is that many/most visitors to Scotland are on a box ticking exercise and so miss experiencing the 'real Scottish golf experience'.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

it would be great as a B&B though unless the course does something to attract more visitors it would be less of a golf themed one. The problem is that many/most visitors to Scotland are on a box ticking exercise and so miss experiencing the 'real Scottish golf experience'.

Jon

Cracking base though to play those great courses on that coast and close to Edinburgh too. At the moment you can buy the Golf Hotel at Silloth for £375K, though I guess that location is just not good enough or it would have sold.

[BCowan]

Adrian,

it would be great as a B&B though unless the course does something to attract more visitors it would be less of a golf themed one. The problem is that many/most visitors to Scotland are on a box ticking exercise and so miss experiencing the 'real Scottish golf experience'.

Jon

Jon,

   Excellent point unfortunately.  I'm looking for the real Scottish golf experience.  I just have a feeling I would like it too much and stay, then you couldn't get rid of me  .  A Pub & Breakfast sounds great.  You should do a kickstarter campaign and raise money (Do they have that across the pond?).  Without seeing the property you, could you section a portion off for a Willie Park Jr museum, Park Archives? 

[Mungo Park]

Not just a Park archive please, but something to tell the Musselburgh story would be good, while you recover from the full Scottish breakfast and a night in the pub!
There are so many of the early and influential club makers who came from, or worked in Musselburgh. It is a much bigger story than just one or two, and one that directly affects many other parts of the world, particularly the USA, but also South Africa, Argentina, Japan, New Zealand, France, Ireland etc. Musselburgh professionals took the game abroad in larger numbers than most other contemporary centres of the game, primarily because of the spike of golf activity that went on in the town between 1850 and 1910 and the later overuse of the course. As yet this is not a statistically demonstrable view, but Musselburgh has an extraordinary story to tell, and Mrs Forman's would work well, if it is saveable.
Latest news is that a previous scheme is being marketed - 2 houses in the garden, reduced height on the wall and conversion of Mrs Forman's to residential . . . . . price tag for the site with planning permission (which it hasn't yet achieved) . . .  £700K ! I don't think there will be a queue.

[Michael Graham]

Mungo,

700K! I know house prices have been increasing in Scotland but that is beyond wildly optimistic. Are they throwing in half of Musselburgh for that?

Hopefully a workable solution can be found for what is an important piece of Scottish golfing history.

[Niall C]

Oh I don't know, depends on the size of the building, the conversion costs and the size of the garden. Two good size building plots overlooking a golf course, not to mention a racetrack, should go pretty well and then you have the existing building. It might not be as outlandish as you think although I could well imagine the planners turning their noses up at building in the garden as well as lowering the wall. Not sure I'd want to lower that wall anyway if I had a house in the garden but there you go.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

I had a quick view on google earth and street view and to me it looked as if 1 section of Mrs Foremans would need to be removed, fortunately not 'our' side. This would not detract from the view. In my opinion the main thing that needs to be retained is that facing gable end. Two new properties in the garden are merely different to the current view. Views change. I find the Lleyandii hedging rather offensive and the Parks and Old Tom would not surely approve but everyone finds everything slightly different.


It seems we are now talking about something completely different and it is three properties not two. So you have the value of one building, plus the value of a pair of plots. If £325,000 is fair market value in that area then a pair of plots at £125,000 = £575,000.


The key is establishing market values in that area.


The plus side is (not having seen the plans) Mrs Foreman's appearance is not going to be dramatically changed so all is ok. Probably best to talk further when it is uploaded to the planning portal.

[David_Tepper]

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2016/2/3/help-golfs-first-snack-bar-and-19th-hole-facing-demolition.html