Mrs Forman's, Musselburgh - at risk

[MCirba]

Never sure how photos from news articles format in this new DG, but hopefully these are readable.

Courtesy of Melvyn Morrow, they are a recounting of the Great Match between hometown Willie Park Sr. and visiting Tom Morris of St. Andrews, as reported in The Scotsman April 23rd, 1870.   The first five pics are from that date and the last is from April 25, 1870.

The course at the time started on today's 2nd hole, the original clubhouse being near there, so you'll note that Morris and Park stopped play after the 3rd hole at Mrs. Forman's for refreshments, with both Morris and the referee agreeing to suspend play due to the unruly hometown crowd at Musselburgh.

[MCirba]

Some possible good news as shared by Anthony Pioppi on FB. http://www.scotsman.com/heritage/world-s-oldest-golf-pub-saved-from-demolition-1-4020066

[Mungo Park]

Mike thanks - and Melvyn. That report is always good value.

Neil Laird and David Hamilton have been working hard on the press front, and we hope that a slightly higher profile to the building may attract someone who can take the project on. We have yet to see the latest application as it is was not validated on receipt by the Local Authority. I presume they will have asked for more detail. It is not certain whether Punch Taverns still have an interest in the site, as they are named as 'other owners' in the current 'live' application that converts the pub into a dwelling. . . . still one to watch.

Mungo

[Mungo Park]

Adrian's earlier post is correct. Things change, and the application that is currently under consideration (15/01035/P) is simply for conversion of Mrs Formans to a house - no messing around with the elevation to the course, or any lowering of the wall, so that's fine (if a little disappointing that it can't make it as a pub).

I agree about the leylandii; beech or hornbeam would do much better there.

So as things stand now there is not much of problem. . . . . but there is another application in the pipeline (16/00059/P), which is for conversion of the pub to a house, with two houses to be built in the garden. At the moment this is not deemed to be valid by the Local Authority, but as soon as it is it will be up-loaded to the web-site, for us all to comment on. My concerns extend slightly further than Adrians, in that the boundary wall, and indeed some sort of planting screen, are probably necessary to prevent the risk of badly hooked golf balls being a danger to the occupants of the houses. If the wall is allowed to be lowered or removed, as was suggested in the earlier 'demolish and pack 'em in' proposal (now thankfully withdrawn), then East Lothian Council as owners/operators of the Links may consider that their duty of care requires them to move the green back to a safe distance from the wall (35metres from the centre of the green). This would really mess up that hole, which is one of Musselburgh's classics, but of course by that time it would be too late, and we would all wish that we had said something earlier.

Mungo

[Niall C]

Mungo


In terms of safety I would think the road would be much more of a cause for concern being on the slice side for right handed drivers. Can't imagine that the garden is really going to be in play for any golfers approaching that green although it's been a good few years since I've been there. Even the next hole which plays away from Mrs Formans is likely to be a concern since the golfer is playing away at an angle from the garden (from what I remember).


With regards the garden, lleyandi trees and all, the trees actually provide a pretty good screen for the back of the row of houses etc. Likewise any house in the garden might do that in a different way. To my way of thinking the key is retaining the building gable and the boundary wall as a landmark. Unfortunate to lose the pub but is some ways I'd rather see it as a house than as yet another museum but I suspect that puts me in a minority on here.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Demolition request withdrawn:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2016/2/3/mrs-formans-demolition-request-is-withdrawn-a-house-conversi.html

http://www.scotsman.com/heritage/world-s-oldest-golf-pub-saved-from-demolition-1-4020066

[Scott Macpherson]

The links is only about 15 mins drive from my home and I really enjoy playing. I may only play a few times each year, but will play with steel or hickory clubs. I'll take family and friends to the course and especially enjoy taking people there who value there golf history. Part of that history is Mrs Forman's pub.


Am delighted to see that the demolition proposal seems to be cancelled.


Here's a photo I took of my family putting on the green in front of the pub on 2 January 2016.


Scott

[Rich Goodale]

This is a tragedy.  What should be done is moving the current clubhouse to Mrs. Forgan's, and make the great 4th/13th into an even greater 9th/18th (particularly when the ponies are running....).  Make the current clubhouse into a half (or quarter) way additional refreshment stop.  Of course, this will never happen.....

[Adrian_Stiff]

This is a tragedy.  What should be done is moving the current clubhouse to Mrs. Forgan's, and make the great 4th/13th into an even greater 9th/18th (particularly when the ponies are running....).  Make the current clubhouse into a half (or quarter) way additional refreshment stop.  Of course, this will never happen.....

Where would the cars park?

[MCirba]

To give another view of how close Mrs. Forman's is to the action, this pic was taken from the 4th green.   Love the "Cradle of Golf" sign on the gate.

[Marty Bonnar]

I wish Mrs bloody Forman would make a final decision on her use of the apostrophe...

F.

[MCirba]

Martin,

You and Joe Bausch need to meet.   He goes ballistic when I forget to put the apostrophe into "Cobb's Creek".   

I still have the scars.   

[Jon Wiggett]

This is a tragedy.  What should be done is moving the current clubhouse to Mrs. Forgan's, and make the great 4th/13th into an even greater 9th/18th (particularly when the ponies are running....).  Make the current clubhouse into a half (or quarter) way additional refreshment stop.  Of course, this will never happen.....

+1

Adrian,

in the car park which could be extended. In fairness there is rarely more than a dozen cars even on the busy days

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

This is a tragedy.  What should be done is moving the current clubhouse to Mrs. Forgan's, and make the great 4th/13th into an even greater 9th/18th (particularly when the ponies are running....).  Make the current clubhouse into a half (or quarter) way additional refreshment stop.  Of course, this will never happen.....

+1

Adrian,

in the car park which could be extended. In fairness there is rarely more than a dozen cars even on the busy days

Jon

Blimey I did not think it was so under used. There again no point in a clubhouse with that volume.

[Niall C]

This is a tragedy.  What should be done is moving the current clubhouse to Mrs. Forgan's, and make the great 4th/13th into an even greater 9th/18th (particularly when the ponies are running....).  Make the current clubhouse into a half (or quarter) way additional refreshment stop.  Of course, this will never happen.....

Where would the cars park?

yes but if you go the whole hog and shift the green a bit and re-arrange a couple of holes you could a decent sized car park on the links 


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

The more you look into these things you realise how much of a minority view this board has. A 12 car carpark for a pub or a £700,000 development. It is a fairly simple no brainer that 12 people don't need a clubhouse.

[Mungo Park]

I think the existing application (15/01035/P) is fine (although technically unworkable as it doesn't have an internal staircase - minor detail). It keeps the building looking as it has done for many years, and presents a good face to the Links. Anything more needs a bit of looking at.

In this instance I shall be writing to support this scheme, so that I can use the opportunity to say that the conversion of the building to residential use seems to be appropriate, but that any future proposal which over-develops the site or puts the historic view from the Links at risk, would will be undesirable.

Anyone that wants to do the same, or your own version, should do so by e-mail before the 17th February.

You can e-mail direct to,
environment@eastlothian.gov.uk 
but you must quote the Application number 15/01035/P, 2 Ravensheugh Road, Musselburgh and state whether you are supporting or opposing or just commenting.

You can also write to,
 
Planning Department, John Muir House
 Brewery Park
 Haddington
 East Lothian
 EH41 3HA.

Again quote reference number '15/01035/P - 2 Ravensheugh Road, Musselburgh'.

You can also comment on line, but will need to register on the web-site before doing so - not onerous but a bit tedious.

I think it is worth putting a marker down at this stage, so that East Lothian at least knows that Mrs Forman's has a significance to the history of golf, and that people care about it. There is a good level of concern nationally and internationally, and the more comments they receive the more  notice will be taken now and in the future. I shall keep an eye out for future applications.

Mungo

[Niall C]

Mungo


I haven't been on the website or seen any material other than on here but do you know whether the building is listed ? It might be worthwhile making representation that the building, and indeed wall, should get an external listing given its importance to the built landscape. It probably won't mean much if there is no economic use for the building however I doubt that would ever be the case unless it became derelict (a condition that owners have been known to let their property get into just to justify knocking it down).


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Ru Macdonald's current Scottish Golf podcast is devoted to discussing Mrs. Forman's:

http://scottishgolfpodcast.com/author/r-macdonald4rgu-ac-uk/

[BCowan]

This is a tragedy.  What should be done is moving the current clubhouse to Mrs. Forgan's, and make the great 4th/13th into an even greater 9th/18th (particularly when the ponies are running....).  Make the current clubhouse into a half (or quarter) way additional refreshment stop.  Of course, this will never happen.....

+1

Adrian,

in the car park which could be extended. In fairness there is rarely more than a dozen cars even on the busy days

Jon

With your strict Drinking and Driving laws you need Lyft and Taxi's.  Pub and Bed seems perfect.  I'd love to sleep in a Beer Garden.  The smartest thing you can do is contact Ben Crenshaw and get him there and do an article in a magazine. 

[Mike Hendren]

.

[Mungo Park]

As a 'newbie' I am not quite sure of the protocol - I suspect a full stop means 'stop this thread', but in case it doesn't, here is one last post. We are sending this note out to as many contacts as we think might be concerned in the hope that we can get sufficient response to make East Lothian aware of some wider concern: -

"As you may be aware, Mrs Forman’s Pub at the end of Musselburgh Links, is at risk from unsympathetic development, following its recent closure. Unfortunately, the only way to avoid this application being passed under ‘delegated powers’ (i e without Councillors being aware of its significance and the level of public concern) is to oppose the application formally. The greater the number who send in a letter or email, the more notice will be taken by the Committee. If you feel that this historic site deserves full consideration by the East Lothian Planning Committee, please could you copy and email (or send) the attached letter of opposition to the address shown: -

This is the text of the letter that we suggest : -

 By e-mail toenvironment@eastlothian.gov.uk   
 
 Planning Department, John Muir House
 Brewery Park
 Haddington
 East Lothian
 EH41 3HA.
 
Dear Sirs,
Application number 15/01035/P, Mrs Forman’s, 2 Ravensheugh Road, Musselburgh
I am writing to object to the above application and any other relevant application on the original plot of Mrs Forman’s, 2 Ravensheugh Road, on the following grounds: -
1)   Mrs. Forman’s is of national and international historical significance in golf and important to the continued reputation of the Old Course Musselburgh. It is known to golfers throughout the world. No alteration of use should be allowed until all avenues to retain its operation or more appropriate use as a heritage centre have been pursued.
2)   I understand the application is not complete and further modifications to this are needed which could impact adversely on the character and viability of the Old Course. No alteration of use should be allowed until the complete plan is available for the entire plot and the Council can be certain that there will be no adverse impact to the look of the Old Course or its viab[/font]ility.

Yours faithfully


x                                             x


Please feel free to re-word the letter to make your own arguments if you prefer, but it is important to state the number of the application (15/01035/P) and confirm that you oppose it th elast date for public comments form inside or outside the UK is 17th February.

Many thanks - and for all your input,

Mungo

[Jon Wiggett]

Mungo,

the full stop has no relevance. Michael just deleted his post.

Just sent my objection sent to council.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Most objections by the public (perhaps 90%) are fouled because they do not state clearly the objection or the objection is irrelevant. What is most important is to relate and cross reference where there is a breach and state how it breaches the relevant policy.


Mungo's is not very good in technical terms. The point after interfering with the golf course needs to state why it will. You need to state what you are objecting too and possible mitigation or areas of compromise.


A blanket objection to it won't be valid. A set of plans showing the elevations is required is this on the web site yet?

[Mungo Park]

Jon, thanks - I hope there will be many more.

Adrian,
My letter of objection is actually much longer, with specific points made to address particular issues, where I am able. But the difficulty is that this application is the 'non-contentious' option, in that absolutely nothing is being done to plan or elevation, they have simply submitted the survey drawings, plans and elevations, with new titles on the rooms - not even changing the drawing numbers nor including an internal stair. The intention seems to be to establish residential use on the site in principle without any fuss. Since it is the only application that is currently valid, it's the only one that we can comment on, and somehow the matter needs to be brought to Councillors' attention as being of wider public concern. A number of brief letters of opposition plus a couple more substantial ones should do that, but I am open to suggestions as to content?

Mungo