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Sean Ogle

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Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« on: January 31, 2016, 02:09:08 PM »
 This past week I finally made it down to Streamsong to play both of the courses there for the first time.


Overall we had a fantastic experience, and save for a surprisingly dull stretch of holes in the middle of the Red course, everything lived up to expectations.


There was one hole that really surprised me though, that I was hoping to get some feedback on.


The par 3, #7 on the Blue was obviously one of the holes I was most excited to play, and standing on the tee, the views completely lived up to expectations - it’s a beautiful and memorable hole.


However after our threesome hit our shots, I was left with some big questions.


Each of us hit the left third of the green, and when we got up to the green this is what we found:

All three of our balls rolled off the green into the exact same place in the hazard, and while it's tough to tell in the photo, it was an unplayable lie.


I’m curious as to why the penalty here is so strong? I hit a fade to the left third, so it wasn’t even drawing towards the hazard, yet the green still fed the ball down into it where I was forced to take a penalty (as clearly we all were).


I’m curious as to why there wouldn’t have just been a natural collection area to force a tough up and down?


It’s one thing if we each hit the edge or have missed the green altogether, but we had three seemingly good shots that ended up with this result.


I was a huge fan of the course and preferred the Blue to the Red, as a whole, but this design characteristic left us all a bit perplexed.


Anyone have thoughts?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2016, 02:44:10 PM »
Thoughts, no, but starting here are a few pics of Blue #7 for those that like visuals:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/SSBlue/pages/page_50.html?


 ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Lane

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2016, 02:50:03 PM »
Hi Sean,


I’ve caddied a number of rounds on Streamsong Blue, and I have to say I’m a bit perplexed myself: I never saw anything like what you’re describing. Which leads me to a question: where exactly is the spot you’ve photographed? You mention that it is left of the green, but your description and photograph are not very exact. So far as I can imagine it, you mean that each shot ended up short of the green, down towards the bridge from the tee box. What I surmise is that your shots somehow found the slope on the back left, then rolled down.


In a larger sense, however, your whole question is not really an empirical one. What I’d say, without knowing where the pin was and seeing the trajectory of your shots, is what your caddie ought to have told you: the hole calls for a shot to the right side of the green, virtually without exception, that then rolls to the pin. By trying to force it in by flying it to the pin (again I presume that the pin was on the left), you took the risk of what ultimately happened. Is that extreme? Maybe—but then again, that’s the whole point. I agree with you that it’s definitely strange that all three balls ended up in the same place—but on the other hand, that also could be considered evidence that the manner of your approach was poorly planned. Both Streamsong courses are, in other words, (and I’m sorry if I am repeating something you already understand) designed from a standpoint opposed to the design principles of the past few decades: rather than tending to even out results, both courses are designed to MAGNIFY the extremes. Will that seem strange if you’re used to things being “fair?” Yes. But if anything, what happened to you could be seen as a FEATURE, not the “bug” you imply it is. What you think of as an empirical question (a poor bit of construction) is in fact a philosophic one.


Hope this helps (I’m afraid you won’t take it that way),


Joe 

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2016, 02:54:46 PM »
I'm sure Tom will chime in eventually but the left third of this green is exactly the third to avoid. I don't look at it as part of the green at all. For me, the middle of this green is the left third and the severity of the left side is mitigated by the helpful slopes off the right.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Tom_Doak

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2016, 03:41:42 PM »
Sean:


Where exactly is that spot?  Is it over the back left of the green and down the hill by the water?


The first year the course opened, a lot of balls wound up down there.  When we built the hole I hadn't visualized mowing all of the bank down to the water as fairway, but since they don't have any mowed rough at Streamsong, they mow that piece, too.  By the time we realized it was a problem, it was too late in the season to get the grass to grow up at all, so I fielded a lot of complaints about it.


Last year, I didn't hear any complaints at all, so I assumed they were letting the bank get a little shaggy so balls wouldn't go to the bottom.  Yours is the first I've heard this year, but the grass only stopped growing there about three weeks ago, so it's possible this is just now starting to become a problem again.

Sean Ogle

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2016, 05:33:27 PM »
Joe,

Thanks for your insights. Admittedly, none of our tee shots were as well planned out as they should have been considering the pin was back right. But what you are saying about magnifying the extremes is fair enough.

Tom, appreciate the response.

Here's approximately where the balls landed, and where they came to rest (might have hit even farther right than that arrow). They came to rest directly to the right as you get over the path in long grass/wetland. But yeah the grass was pretty much mowed down to fairway level all the way to the water.



I also should point out I wasn't asking the question from the standpoint that I was upset about it or found it unfair. More just curious about whether or not it was a specific attempt to penalize shots that didn't go for the center of the green, or if it was potentially a maintenance issue like Tom alluded to. Just trying to boost my design IQ.

Also apologize for not taking more photos of the area around the green, realize this isn't a whole lot to go by.

Thanks again for the thoughts!


Joe Lane

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2016, 06:17:16 PM »
Hi Sean,

Your photograph has clarified your point, as has Mr. Doak’s comments. Once I could see what you were describing, I’d say that I have seen exactly what happened to you and your friends several times over the past two seasons. Mr. Doak has said that this is not intentional, as it has more to do with maintenance difficulties—i.e., in terms of my previous response, it is an empirical, not a philosophical, issue. Or, to put it another way, it’s simply due to the accidents of the world, rather than an example of design.

Still, there’s an alternate theory available: it may be that the maintenance staff at Streamsong has a better interpretation of Mr. Doak’s intentions than Mr. Doak does. (To interpretational professionals, thinking that Mr. Doak has the last word is known as the “intentional fallacy.”) In that sense, then Mr. Doak’s idea of growing the grass in that area would represent a softening of the philosophy behind it—a failure to “go all the way” if you like.

All of this, of course, will sound very heady I suppose. But that is because what might appear to be kind of frivolous—the design of golf courses—is in fact extremely fraught with all sorts of assumptions and leaps in logic and other choices that we commonly group under the name “philosophy” for want of a better word, along with very difficult empirical questions like how to mow the grass. This isn’t to say that Mr. Doak’s choices are right, that is—it could be said that Robert Trent Jones’ philosophy is that by de-emphasizing weird bounces like the one you experienced, design thereby dampens the role of “luck” and therefore (correctly?) rewards the more skilled player. That’s a perfectly valid argument—but Mr. Doak is proceeding from different premises: i.e., that by maximizing, rather than reducing, the role of “luck,” everyone has more fun playing the game. For myself, I think Mr. Doak’s point is correct with regards to the design of golf courses—and only golf courses. There’s far too many things these days, if I could editorialize for a moment, that are designed according to Mr. Doak’s principles rather than Mr. Jones’.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to write down some thoughts on the matter,

Joe 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2016, 07:09:12 PM »
If, instead of being on land IN the hazard, if the golf balls ended up in water in the hazard, would your curiosity be satisfied ?

The steep slope from the green flowing into the hazard produces what I would call ...... Exaggerated or Excessive results.

I've often thought that an intervening "catch" bunker might help solve the "roll off" problem.

Even if balls don't reach the hazard, they tend to end up in the same location.  Ergo, bad lies.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2016, 07:29:59 PM »
it may be that the maintenance staff at Streamsong has a better interpretation of Mr. Doak’s intentions than Mr. Doak does. (To interpretational professionals, thinking that Mr. Doak has the last word is known as the “intentional fallacy.”) In that sense, then Mr. Doak’s idea of growing the grass in that area would represent a softening of the philosophy behind it—a failure to “go all the way” if you like.


I should clarify that in no way am I trying to blame the maintenance crew for the issue.  We were fighting a steep slope in building the hole, and we just didn't quite get it to work the way we wanted to, so we need them to bail us out. 


As a matter of fact, Bill Coore, who was there last weekend, made a point to call me last week to tell me how perfect both courses were looking and playing.  And I responded that I sure never lost any sleep worrying about how Rusty and Kyle would be keeping the course.


I resisted digging up the hole two years ago because that's both expensive and disruptive, so we wanted to see if the problem would sort itself out with a bit of maturity; but if the problem persists this winter, I imagine we will be making a change come June.

Joe Lane

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2016, 09:07:55 PM »
Hello Mr. Doak,

Just to clarify my point, it’s not that I’m accusing you of throwing Rusty et al. under the bus, it’s that I’m trying to define the problem. The question is, whether Sean’s result is a matter of design, or whether it was simply an accident. What the passage you quoted is meant to suggest is that, while the maintenance practices may not be what you originally intended, it may be that the staff is actually fulfilling your intention to a degree even you did not anticipate. This I admit is a complicated thought—but it’s one that’s quite common in the realm of interpretation.

The analogy would be something like the following: compare James Madison’s intention when he wrote the Constitution—and the United States as it is today. Now, that of course is rather a grand comparison for the work of golf course design, but the point is that the logic is more or less the same. What I am saying, in short, is the way a possible argument could go is that if your (in an abstract sense, although this may also apply to you personally) intention is to make events on the golf course more volatile–just as Robert Trent Jones could be seen as having the intention of making it less—then the maintenance staff’s cutting of that area as fairway, instead of rough, is arguably more in line with your overall intention, even if that was not your specific intention at this particular place. I hope that this helps to make sense of what I’m saying—and makes it clear that I am not at all seeking to attach blame to Rusty and everyone. On the contrary: what I’m saying is that it’s (logically speaking) entirely possible that they understand the golf course better than the designer. Don’t make it so, to be sure—but possible

Thanks,

Joe   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2016, 11:47:17 PM »
Joe,

I don't know that an architect can design a perfect golf course, one without a single flaw.

I also don't know if an architect can anticipate every circumstance.

One of the problems with the 7th green is that it's elevated above its access point at the end of the bridge.
Therefore the golfer has to walk up/down a steep ramp to get to/from the green, and it's that area that causes an issue.

If that area wasn't mowed to fairway height all the foot traffic would probably wear the grass down, replicating the fairway conditions.

Certainly, the 7th hole is a stunning, well designed golf hole.

archie_struthers

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2016, 12:24:56 AM »
 8) ???


I'm sure Kyle could clarify if he sees this. Though he might enjoy the difficulty.

Joe Lane

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2016, 01:40:27 AM »
Hi Patrick,


I’m quite familiar with the actual set-up to the golf course, so I very much appreciate the empirical, or real-world, problem that the physical site of the hole presents. That’s irrelevant to the real issue to my mind however. What’s interesting to me is not the brute fact of mowing the grass or not mowing the grass, or whatever. It wouldn’t particularly matter to the issue that’s of interest to me whether the hole was on Mars.


What’s fascinating to me is the actual question Sean raised, which was a matter of interpretation, or judgment. As I understand what Sean was saying, the question was, first, whether can someone even get an “unfair” lie on a Tom Doak course, given that it’s possible to argue that his intention is to maximize volatility, as it were, whereas the previous generation of architects might said to have the intention of minimizing volatility, and secondly whether it was possible, given that overall intention, that the maintenance staff could be said to be enforcing that intention to a degree even Mr. Doak found excessive—and in that case, which interpretation, the maintenance staff’s or Mr. Doak’s, should have priority. I’d be willing to stipulate to everything you’ve said, in other words. I’d just say that it doesn’t address what’s interesting about Sean’s question.


The real question that Sean’s question brings up, in other words, is a philosophical one: Mr. Doak could be said to be proposing a theory about golf course design—viz., that it is a more enjoyable game with higher variability in scoring. That’s a solid proposition—it describes a position that’s clearly distinguishable from any other position— but one that cannot really be measured empirically: even if we could just take a survey of every golfer who played courses who played courses designed according to that theory and those courses designed according to the other sort, it isn’t clear that said evidence would settle the question. (The numbers could change over time.) Now, Mr. Doak, or yourself, could simply refuse to engage in the question at all by just saying that all golf courses are sui generis, but to my mind that’s begging the question. Of course, it’s entirely understandable that Mr. Doak would wish to be vague on the point—he does have further assignments to pursue—but it seems to me that even prior to the above, the real point is that Mr. Doak, among other people, is raising the bar for golf architecture because he is revealing it to be on a par with other sorts of architecture: that is, capable of bearing sustained mental investigation. Anyway, that’s what I find interesting about Mr. Doak’s work: that it raises questions that rise to the level of art.


Maybe you feel differently.


Joe   

JMEvensky

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2016, 06:20:27 AM »
8) ???


I'm sure Kyle could clarify if he sees this. Though he might enjoy the difficulty.


I thought the same thing--KH would be smiling as he read this.

BCrosby

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2016, 09:34:22 AM »
Interesting discussion Joe. Keep it coming.


Do I hear echoes of Joshua Crane vs. MacKenzie/Behr in the 1920's?


Bob

Jason Topp

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2016, 11:13:41 AM »
Our caddies told us  that they slow down the green on 7 due to this issue.  I am not sure how that is really possible in the dead of winter.  I would also think the issue probably disappears when the grass grows. 

However, during winter, I do think the current setup is too severe.  I am fine with a green that repels balls but sending them into a water hazard is a severe penalty on an already difficult hole.

Our group was experienced with the green.  As a result - no one went left but a few balls found the junk on the right.  Or - it could have been the 35 mph winds blowing the balls right. 

Greg Tallman

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2016, 11:44:27 AM »
Having not played the course I really do not know but isn't this área shaped so as to accommodate foot traffic and could it not be the same foot traffic that is, at least in part, creating the issue? At first glance that would seem to be at least part of the problem.

That said it does remind me a bit of an area just off the par three 8th green at Doak's Bay of Dreams here in Baja.  Opposite side of the green and toward the back half but a similar fall off into trouble where almost any ball missing in a relatively large area would funnel into an unplayable area as often as not.  No foot traffic issues on this hole however. Similar to Pat's thoughts my instinct was that a bunker would better serve this area. Hopefully this course gets revived before too long and I have the opportunity to investigate further.

Sean_A

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2016, 01:56:00 PM »
Joe,

Thanks for your insights. Admittedly, none of our tee shots were as well planned out as they should have been considering the pin was back right. But what you are saying about magnifying the extremes is fair enough.

Tom, appreciate the response.

Here's approximately where the balls landed, and where they came to rest (might have hit even farther right than that arrow). They came to rest directly to the right as you get over the path in long grass/wetland. But yeah the grass was pretty much mowed down to fairway level all the way to the water.



I also should point out I wasn't asking the question from the standpoint that I was upset about it or found it unfair. More just curious about whether or not it was a specific attempt to penalize shots that didn't go for the center of the green, or if it was potentially a maintenance issue like Tom alluded to. Just trying to boost my design IQ.

Also apologize for not taking more photos of the area around the green, realize this isn't a whole lot to go by.

Thanks again for the thoughts!


Do folks think it strange that when the target is hit (presumbly with decent flight) on a target shot that such a harsh result could occur so often?  I am not sure I can get behind a design intent like this if all know the greens will be firm...though it isn't clear that is the design intent.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2016, 03:48:36 PM »
Certainly not ideal but cheaply, easily and quickly rectified with the sod cutter and a bit of rootzone.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 05:18:18 PM »

We discussed this issue a few years ago.

Sean, on the bright side, at least it only happened to you once (hopefully) and you could retrieve the ball.




Agree.  And I noted it at the time, that shaving the bank down to the water hazard was a horrible example for other courses.
Tom,Why the shaved bank left of #7 green on Streamsong Blue?  Seems unnecessarily penal.  Back in March, we saw balls land on the left side of the green (two from Rich Choi) hit the slope and soon find a watery grave.  Any plans to grow that in or put a small pot bunker?   
Thanks, I almost had it blocked from my mind...Yeah Tom, wat is up wit dat?
It is too penal, and we are going to change it.  Originally we mowed it short because they mow ALL THE GRASS ON THE GOLF COURSE short, and they didn't want to set up a mower just for that one slope.  But, it was playing too penal, so it was decided to let the grass grow out ... it just wasn't growing enough this winter / spring to hold up the ball.  I haven't seen it this summer but it should be longer now.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Joe Hancock

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2016, 05:39:53 PM »
What's cool to me about this discussion is that we still have the ONDG with us to discuss it. And he has, with class.

Unlike our discussions about 100 year old courses to which we can only speculate, here we can learn that, sometimes, architects allow some things, design-wise, in hopes that it works. And sometimes it doesn't work. Now, can anyone imagine why Donlad Ross tinkered with Pinehurst #2 to the extent he did?

Fun topic, and thanks, Tom for your always honest take on things.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Carl Nichols

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2016, 06:18:23 PM »
What's cool to me about this discussion is that we still have the ONDG with us to discuss it. And he has, with class.

Unlike our discussions about 100 year old courses to which we can only speculate, here we can learn that, sometimes, architects allow some things, design-wise, in hopes that it works. And sometimes it doesn't work. Now, can anyone imagine why Donlad Ross tinkered with Pinehurst #2 to the extent he did?

Fun topic, and thanks, Tom for your always honest take on things.


Completely agree.

Ryan Farrow

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2016, 07:44:42 PM »
I like this thread a lot and encourage anyone on this board to respond as a golfer.


It's nice to see Tom clarify his design intent,  I only have one question to Tom and this board.


Would it be a problem  if all 3 of these shots ended up in the water, IF...   there was not a forced carry?






Part of me feels that every shot which lands softly on a green should result in the next shot having a playable lie (it sounds like Blue 7 fails in this respect, in its current state). Perhaps a bunker shot would be an acceptable punishment, but that could likely cause problems as water would also follow the same path into the bunker and cause constant washouts (especially in Florida).


 

Sean_A

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2016, 08:18:51 PM »
I like this thread a lot and encourage anyone on this board to respond as a golfer.


It's nice to see Tom clarify his design intent,  I only have one question to Tom and this board.


Would it be a problem  if all 3 of these shots ended up in the water, IF...   there was not a forced carry?






Part of me feels that every shot which lands softly on a green should result in the next shot having a playable lie (it sounds like Blue 7 fails in this respect, in its current state). Perhaps a bunker shot would be an acceptable punishment, but that could likely cause problems as water would also follow the same path into the bunker and cause constant washouts (especially in Florida).

Ryan

I normally like "gravity design" and I don't buy that every shot landing softly on a green should result in a playable lie.  But they shouldn't be met with derision either.  The short of it is target design is inherently at odds with f&f conditions.  Since we should all want f&f conditions  :o, and just as on any other shot with f&f conditions, width must be present..especially when slopes are involved as well.  I am not saying I have a "solution", but I am sure the brain trust will do.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joe Lane

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Re: Question About Design Characteristic of Streamsong Blue #7
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2016, 11:30:07 PM »
Ok, so is the consensus that it’s somehow a bad thing that Sean’s and his friends’ balls got twisted?

Because I don’t see the argument that it is. So all their shots ended up in the same place? So what? Maybe it is, but no one has actually performed the argument. Am I right to think that there’s a sentiment that thinks this is “unfair?” Why? And I don’t mean “there isn’t any reason” but instead “I would like to see those reasons spelled out.”

Anyway, thanks to BCrosby for directing my attention towards his interesting pieces on MacKenzie/Crane discussion. It’s been interesting.

Thanks,

Joe