What are Donald Ross's Best SITES?

[Lyndell Young]

Winchester ,Beverly,Charlotte ,PH 2, Linville.

[Mark McKeever]

What a great topic! 


My nominations:


-Charles River CC
-Vesper CC
-Schuylkill CC
-Worcester CC
-Shennecossett GC

[Josh Tarble]

Phil,
That is a great post.  I was thinking the same thing.  It was my thinking that the actual terrain at Beverly is pretty terrible for golf - especially the front.  Just the one big ridge and pretty flat other than that.  The back side is decent, but I still wouldn't call it great and certainly not one of Ross's best sites.  What Ross was able to create there is nothing short of brilliant.

[Sven Nilsen]

Before we get too carried away, most of the routing at Beverly wasn't the work of Ross.  His touches are certainly there, but this wasn't an original layout, and most of the playing corridors were set out by George O'Neil.


Sven

[Josh Tarble]

Before we get too carried away, most of the routing at Beverly wasn't the work of Ross.  His touches are certainly there, but this wasn't an original layout, and most of the playing corridors were set out by George O'Neil.


Sven

I knew that, but wasn't most of the traversal of the main ridge on the front side Ross?

[Sven Nilsen]

Before we get too carried away, most of the routing at Beverly wasn't the work of Ross.  His touches are certainly there, but this wasn't an original layout, and most of the playing corridors were set out by George O'Neil.


Sven

I knew that, but wasn't most of the traversal of the main ridge on the front side Ross?

Josh:


Probably for part of it.  Here's an old thread touching on some of the confusion (note how the early written descriptions of what was built match up with the 1915 map):


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60113.msg1421612.html#msg1421612


My read of the early maps and articles on the course is that today's front 9 as built was much closer to what is there now than what was described in the 1908 map (a map which was noted as being in error with respect to today's front nine shortly after it was published). 


I'm not going to argue that holes like the 5th, 6th and 7th weren't inspired, but any conversation of Ross' routing at Beverly should take into account what was there before him.


Sven

[J_ Crisham]

Before we get too carried away, most of the routing at Beverly wasn't the work of Ross.  His touches are certainly there, but this wasn't an original layout, and most of the playing corridors were set out by George O'Neil.


Sven

I knew that, but wasn't most of the traversal of the main ridge on the front side Ross?

Yes- which Is the brilliance of the front nine. O'Neil's work was pretty rudimentary in relationship to his utilization of our front nine ridgeline.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm not so sure Beverly is all that great of a site, especially as compared to a course like Plainfield.  Beverly's property is a long, narrow rectangle and, as others have mentioned, there is a ridgeline that transects the front nine and five of the holes are designed around the ridge in creative ways.  To me, the site is one that demands a lot out of an architect because of all of the boundary and corner holes.  To be sure, Beverly does have some really good boundary (#s 5, 11 and 13) and corner (#s 9 and 10) holes that reflect some great design work.  The narrow, rectangular nature of the property surely could have produced a much more mundane result, so I give more credit to the architect than the site in this instance.

[Chris DeToro]

Worcester is a great site--can't believe I forgot to mention that one in his "best of" in the northeast.  Such varied terrain as well as you move from the flatish first few holes to the meandering, hilly back 9.   

[K Rafkin]

Thank you everyone for all the quality responses!  I now find myself incredibly curious to see several courses that were not previously on my radar.


I will say I'm a bit surprised that I didn't encounter all that much resistance about Pinehurst #2 and Seminole.


I honestly believe that i would of gotten different responses had i made a thread requesting for Donald Ross's best courses.

[Sven Nilsen]

Before we get too carried away, most of the routing at Beverly wasn't the work of Ross.  His touches are certainly there, but this wasn't an original layout, and most of the playing corridors were set out by George O'Neil.


Sven

I knew that, but wasn't most of the traversal of the main ridge on the front side Ross?

Yes- which Is the brilliance of the front nine. O'Neil's work was pretty rudimentary in relationship to his utilization of our front nine ridgeline.

Jack:


Read this description of what was actually built.  It sounds a lot like the course that is there now.  The 1st was perched at the top of the ridge line, just like today, with danger lurking for anything long.  The drive on the old 3rd (today's 2nd) sound very similar.  The old 4th (today's 5th) was a shorter hole, but it still played to a "hillside" green.  Ross did alter the old 5th and 6th into today's 7th, but the original routing featured a shot much like the drive you face up the hill. 


I don't think O'Neil gets enough credit for what he actually did on the front nine.  I don't think there was anything rudimentary about it, and I think Ross thought so as well.  His changes largely incorporated what O'Neil had set out, unlike a number of other courses where Ross completely rearranged the existing routing (Skokie being one such example).


Golfers Magazine Oct. 1908 -

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sedgefield is an excellent piece of ground. I'm not sure if the course was routed before the houses but I like the land and the routing. It may not be one of Ross' best courses but it is pretty good, and the topography helps a lot.

[Ed Homsey]

As a Rochesterian, it is hard for me to imagine that there are 6 Ross courses, in relatively close proximity, with better sites, i.e. Brooklea, the two Oak Hill courses, Monroe, Country Club of Rochester, and 9 holes of Irondequoit CC.  Of those 6, I think it's hard to beat Oak Hill's West course. 

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Hyde Park is a pretty bold use of land on a great piece of property in Cincinnati.

[Cliff Hamm]

What a great topic! 


My nominations:


-Charles River CC
-Vesper CC
-Schuylkill CC
-Worcester CC
-Shennecossett GC

Mark,  I am not an argumentative type. I Love Shenny. But it is a relatively flat piece of land .    Great example of Donald Ross being a genius of getting so much out of so little .    Be curious to know why you think it is such a great piece of land ...

[Tim Martin]

What a great topic! 


My nominations:


-Charles River CC
-Vesper CC
-Schuylkill CC
-Worcester CC
-Shennecossett GC

Mark,  I am not an argumentative type. I Love Shenny. But it is a relatively flat piece of land .    Great example of Donald Ross being a genius of getting so much out of so little .    Be curious to know why you think it is such a great piece of land ...

Cliff-I agree wholeheartedly that Shenny is an uninspiring piece of ground as I referenced in post 43. Anyone that wants to talk about holes(15-17) out by the Thames River should remember that they were not part of the original routing and were built in the late 90's as a result of a land swap with the Pfizer Corporation. The 4th hole which has a cool volcano green is really the only pronounced elevation change on the golf course. As far as land movement there isn't much. The better site and another Ross public option is Winnapaug in Westerly RI which is 15 minutes away.

[mark chalfant]

Longmeadow.  Use of Ravines


Brookside,  Use of stream and stunning  greensites


Frankiln Hills,  Splendid  variety of holes,  ideal  ground  movement


Plainfield  !!


Tuegega  and Buffalo,  especially the  incoming  side at both courses

[Dunlop_White]

Roaring Gap!!

[Jason Way]

Hyde Park is a pretty bold use of land on a great piece of property in Cincinnati.

+1


Can't believe I forgot Hyde Park.  Wonderful site.

[Josh Tarble]

Jason and Matt,

Is Hyde Park a great site?  Or a great routing on a difficult site?  No doubt there are some awesome holes and the course is one of my favorites.  But there are so many ravines and really steep hills that I would have a hard time calling it great. 

I guess what I'm saying/asking, is that I have no clue what truly makes a great site.  Is it subtle movement and features or is it big and bold? 

[Phil McDade]

I don't think O'Neil gets enough credit for what he actually did on the front nine.  I don't think there was anything rudimentary about it, and I think Ross thought so as well.  His changes largely incorporated what O'Neil had set out, unlike a number of other courses where Ross completely rearranged the existing routing (Skokie being one such example).

Sven:


O'Neil I think does deserve credit for routing some very good holes at Beverly. I also don't doubt that the course was much enhanced by Ross' work -- including green sites and the greens themselves -- after his re-working of O'Neil's initial work there.


Ross, of course, had much more land to work with than O'Neil. The best par 3 at the Bev may be the 17th, and the 18th is a terrific par 5 closer -- that's all Ross. It was Ross, not O'Neil, who devised the brilliant blind tee shot on the 13th. The routing of the front nine was, in my estimation, significantly enhanced by Ross' work, particularly the ebb-and-flow of holes 5-6-7 and Ross' use of the ridge line there -- again, enabled by the addition of land that Ross could work with that O'Neil lacked.


I think O'Neil deserves credit for the framework of significant parts of the routing of Beverly, but my examination of the course and historical information mined by Tim Cronin suggests it was greatly enhanced, and added on to in some terrific ways, by Ross.

[Jason Topp]

I disagree with White Bear Yacht Club as a great site.  I think the hills are too severe.  I prefer the land on which Interlachen and Minnekahda sit.

Northland is an interesting one.  For me - the course is an example of a genius routing because the site is so difficult.  I have no idea how much it drops from one end to the other.  The views make the experience spectacular but coming up with a walkable routing had to be very difficult.

Pinehurst #2 is terrific ground for golf but the biggest drawback to that course is that you cannot see much.  I knew something was bugging me about the course but I could not put my finger on it until we came to those two terrific holes on the front that are both basically par 4.5s.

Southern Pines is a course that, to me, sits very comfortably on some terrific land.  The ground that covers the holes next to the clubhouse is pretty boring but the rest of the course is about perfect. 

[Sven Nilsen]

I don't think O'Neil gets enough credit for what he actually did on the front nine.  I don't think there was anything rudimentary about it, and I think Ross thought so as well.  His changes largely incorporated what O'Neil had set out, unlike a number of other courses where Ross completely rearranged the existing routing (Skokie being one such example).

Sven:


O'Neil I think does deserve credit for routing some very good holes at Beverly. I also don't doubt that the course was much enhanced by Ross' work -- including green sites and the greens themselves -- after his re-working of O'Neil's initial work there.


Ross, of course, had much more land to work with than O'Neil. The best par 3 at the Bev may be the 17th, and the 18th is a terrific par 5 closer -- that's all Ross. It was Ross, not O'Neil, who devised the brilliant blind tee shot on the 13th. The routing of the front nine was, in my estimation, significantly enhanced by Ross' work, particularly the ebb-and-flow of holes 5-6-7 and Ross' use of the ridge line there -- again, enabled by the addition of land that Ross could work with that O'Neil lacked.


I think O'Neil deserves credit for the framework of significant parts of the routing of Beverly, but my examination of the course and historical information mined by Tim Cronin suggests it was greatly enhanced, and added on to in some terrific ways, by Ross.

Phil:


17 was his, but 18 was certainly not "all Ross." 


I'm in no way making an argument that what Ross did wasn't inspired.  It just wasn't his routing, and thus we shouldn't be talking about Beverly as being a masterful Ross layout.  Over 2/3rds of what we see today was essentially in place (setting aside some lengthening and other improvements) before he came along.


It would certainly be interesting to see what Ross would have been done if he had been handed the Beverly land as a blank slate, just as it is interesting to examine how he tweaked the existing layout. 


Sven

[Jason Thurman]

Jason and Matt,

Is Hyde Park a great site?  Or a great routing on a difficult site?  No doubt there are some awesome holes and the course is one of my favorites.  But there are so many ravines and really steep hills that I would have a hard time calling it great. 

I guess what I'm saying/asking, is that I have no clue what truly makes a great site.  Is it subtle movement and features or is it big and bold?

I would agree with you. I think it's a tough property with some really flat and dull sections of land interspersed with some really severe sections. I think the routing gets a lot out of it, particularly at holes 3 and 4, but the property itself doesn't thrill me. I like the land that holes 2, 9, 12, 17, and 18 sit on, but the rest strikes me as either too dull or too severe.


That doesn't mean it's not an excellent course, because I think it is, but it's a property that took some really creative solutions to find something that works.

[Mike Hendren]

Wow, I feel like a moron with respect to Beverly.  Everyone mentions the dramatic ridge on the front, but I focused primarily on the back nine. Perhaps my memory from a dozen years ago fails me.   Help, please:
 
Don't the 11th and 15th fairways have significant wavey movement?
 
Isn't the tee shot at the 13th up and over a blind hillock with the second slightly uphill as well?
 
Aren't the 14th and 16th greens neatly benched into sidehills?  I found it impossible to read putts correctly on the 14th green, where I spend approximately 15 minutes.
 
Isn't the 17th a perfect example of Ross' gradually uphill long one shotter?
 
Isn't there a nifty abrupt rise in the 18th fairway that is a challenge to carry with the second shot if one has found the rough off the tee?
 
I'm dumbfounded.  Or dumb.
 
Mike