What are Donald Ross's Best SITES?

[Howard Riefs]

Beverly, particularly in the context of Chicago being incredibly flat.

[Mike Hendren]

Beverly, particularly in the context of Chicago being incredibly flat.

+1

[J_ Crisham]

Beverly
White Bear Yacht Club
Northland Duluth
Plainfield
Salem
Winchester
Charles River
Cedar Rapids CC
Aronimink
Gulph Mills
             Some very good courses due in large part to the terrain

[BCowan]

Ben Cowan,

I haven't been to Pinehurst in many years, but was a bit surprised by your comments. My recollection - perhaps faulty - is that I wasn't overly impressed with the site itself.

Yes, there is elevation change. #4, 5 and 18 standout. Also, there are other holes with elevated greens - #1, 14 and 16.

Still, I just don't get to excited by the property. The cool stuff is what Ross did, #2 green complex, for example.

Help me out. How is my assessment of the Pinehurst property faulty?

Very interested to hear your comments or those from anyone else who shares your view.

Tim,

   I'm 36 years old, but I tend to look at sites as to how am I able to walk the course in my 70's.  I also take into account micro undulations that I enjoy that one can find in fairways.  #2 has the right amount of flow and change of elevation IMO.  I would probably be in the extreme minority to say I prefer the land at Pinehurst #2 to a GCA fav like Kingsley which I doubt I'd enjoy walking in my 70's. 


   For example the 3rd hole at #2 is a pretty flat hole, but behind the green is a beautiful down slope.  There are many vistas from that green.  The 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th, and 14th holes have very good elevation changes.  I think many of the greens get redundant at #2 and aren't anywhere near to Ross's best greens.  I prefer Inverness, Grosse Ile, Barton Hills, Mid Pines, and Franklin Hills to #2's greens.

[PCCraig]

Northland Duluth

This is a great one that I somehow forgot. An absolutely incredible site.

[Mike_Young]

Holston Hills
Plainfield
Scioto
Aronomink
Interlachen

[Tom_Doak]

The thing about this thread is that Ross's talent was a given; so, generally speaking, his best sites should have and did yield his best courses.


He didn't have many of the oceanfront sites that we've seen in recent years [although Seminole is pretty good], but he had a lot of wonderful, rolling inland sites.  Monroe and Glens Falls are pretty awesome.  Roaring Gap is pretty awesome.  Oakland Hills and Franklin Hills are great sites for golf.  White Bear Yacht Club [if it's Ross's] is wild.  Salem and Winchester and Essex are all excellent.  Most architects would kill for a site like any of those.

[MCirba]

Of the Ross courses I've played, Monroe and Plainfield are tough to top for topography.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben Cowan,

I haven't been to Pinehurst in many years, but was a bit surprised by your comments. My recollection - perhaps faulty - is that I wasn't overly impressed with the site itself.

Yes, there is elevation change. #4, 5 and 18 standout. Also, there are other holes with elevated greens - #1, 14 and 16.

Still, I just don't get to excited by the property. The cool stuff is what Ross did, #2 green complex, for example.

Help me out. How is my assessment of the Pinehurst property faulty?

Very interested to hear your comments or those from anyone else who shares your view.

Tim,

   I'm 36 years old, but I tend to look at sites as to how am I able to walk the course in my 70's.  I also take into account micro undulations that I enjoy that one can find in fairways.  #2 has the right amount of flow and change of elevation IMO.  I would probably be in the extreme minority to say I prefer the land at Pinehurst #2 to a GCA fav like Kingsley which I doubt I'd enjoy walking in my 70's. 


   For example the 3rd hole at #2 is a pretty flat hole, but behind the green is a beautiful down slope.  There are many vistas from that green.  The 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th, and 14th holes have very good elevation changes.  I think many of the greens get redundant at #2 and aren't anywhere near to Ross's best greens.  I prefer Inverness, Grosse Ile, Barton Hills, Mid Pines, and Franklin Hills to #2's greens.

Ben,


Thanks. Your logic led me to conclude Kingston Heath would be the perfect place to be a member, though it would be hard to turn down the same at Royal Melbourne.


Back to Pinehurst, it is an interesting site to think about. I just never warmed up to it.

[Sean_A]

For my tastes, Roaring Gap is well beyond the pale with elevation changes so not such a great site from a walking perspective...which is very important.  When I think of the best holes they aren't the wild elevation change holes such as at 7, 11 & 12.  6, 10 (pretty hilly though), 15 & 17 are my favs.  Its the greens which make Roaring Gap very good, despite the ott elevation changes.  Bottom line, less can be more. 


Ciao

[David Davis]

For my tastes, Roaring Gap is well beyond the pale with elevation changes so not such a great site from a walking perspective...which is very important.  When I think of the best holes they aren't the wild elevation change holes such as at 7, 11 & 12.  6, 10 (pretty hilly though), 15 & 17 are my favs.  Its the greens which make Roaring Gap very good, despite the ott elevation changes.  Bottom line, less can be more. 


Ciao

Not a great walking site? What did I miss...but at least we get to stop every 150 yds or so to play our next ball up the steep slopes  ? You should go visit L'Emperor in Belgium ha ha. (no don't do that, you'll hate me after)

[/size][size=78%]I guess I grew up in Oregon hiking in the mountains, maybe that's it. I don't mind having to traverse a couple hills. I can think of a few great walking sites with hills on them. Crystal Downs for example ;-) [/size]


Sean you may have been in the flatlands for too long... (are you even in the flatlands?)

[Sean_A]

David


By my calculations, RG averages nearly 40 feet of climbing per hole...thats a lot of climbing when we consider that many people might consider an average of 20 feet per hole to be quite a bit.  No, for me, RG is comfortably beyond the pale as the best sites probably have no more than 150-200 feet of elevation change compared to RG's nearly 700! Its still a great course, but I think so because of what Ross did, not because of the site.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

40 feet per hole, hahahahahahah. You should play Realp in Switzerland, now that is a hilly course!!!

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Sean,

40 feet per hole, hahahahahahah. You should play Realp in Switzerland, now that is a hilly course!!!

Jon

don't remind me....

[Tim Martin]

Misquamicut has a great piece of land and distinctly different between the two nines. Holes 1 through 10 and 18 keep you on the clubhouse side of Ocean View Highway and the landforms are amazing with much more movement than you would expect at sea level. The inward holes 11-17 play on much flatter ground with Little Narragansett Bay as the backdrop. Ross delivers a 215 yard uphill par 3 for the home hole which plays more like 230 not factoring any wind. The clubhouse is sited on the highest ground next to the 18th green with some great vistas available out over the golf course and bay.
This is a photo of the first hole looking back from the green to the club house and tee.

[Jon Cavalier]

As noted by people above, in my area, Gulph Mills and Aronimink are on two of the best sites for golf in Philadelphia (particularly the former).

I bought Inverness was a mostly a fantastic site (or, more accurately, a good site with a fantastic feature) and that the way Ross used the ravine was nothing short of brillant

Bedford Springs, Montclair and Shennecossett are all really nice site as well.

And of course, Whittinsville.

[Tom_Doak]

David


By my calculations, RG averages nearly 40 feet of climbing per hole...thats a lot of climbing when we consider that many people might consider an average of 20 feet per hole to be quite a bit.  No, for me, RG is comfortably beyond the pale as the best sites probably have no more than 150-200 feet of elevation change compared to RG's nearly 700! Its still a great course, but I think so because of what Ross did, not because of the site.


Ciao

Sean:


Where are you getting these numbers from?  It's been a long time since my one trip to Roaring Gap, and I remember it as hilly, but not beyond the pale.  There's a huge difference between 700 feet of elevation change [from lowest point to highest point], and 700 feet of ups and downs over 18 holes.

[Sean_A]

Tom


No, ~700 feet of climbing as measured by a fit bit...and it felt every inch of it.  No matter how you slice it thats nearly 40 feet of climbing per hole...on average....its a lot and much more than normally associated with hilly walking sites.  If I recall, Mimosa Hillls was a few hundred feet less and Raleigh CC (which is quite a hilly property) was half RG.  I don't know what the elevation change is, but that isn't always the best indicator of how hilly a course is for walking.  My point was the site is made viable by the architecture.  Ross' great greens and the way he attacks the hills actually makes the walk doable.  There aren't any crazy ups or downs, just a steady dose of it    Of course, how much climbing is ideal or acceptable is based on opinion.  However, I am sure if people are asked about theoretical best sites, very few would say 700 feet of climbing is anything close to ideal. 

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

As noted by people above, in my area, Gulph Mills and Aronimink are on two of the best sites for golf in Philadelphia (particularly the former).

I bought Inverness was a mostly a fantastic site (or, more accurately, a good site with a fantastic feature) and that the way Ross used the ravine was nothing short of brillant

Bedford Springs, Montclair and Shennecossett are all really nice site as well.

And of course, Whittinsville.

With the exception of the 4th hole at Shennecossett it is a very bland piece of land. Remember that the original routing did not cross the road for 15-17 as the three holes out by the Thames River were built in the late 1990's by Brian Silva as a result of a land swap with the Pfizer Corporation. Ross as he was able to do so often used what was at his disposal to deliver a winner.

[Matt MacIver]

Sean - I was thinking Mimosa Hills when I read your thoughts on Roaring Gap, i.e. RG is more hilly than MH and it was a bit of a slog to walk whereas MH was closer to optimal. Completely perfect from hills + walkability is Old Town, but that's another discussion and not a Ross. Maybe Myers Park or Carolina CC which have some elevation changes that require thoughts before pulling a club but are bothe great walks.

[Chris DeToro]

Ross had some incredible sites here in the northeast including a few seaside ones…here are a few of the better, in my opinion:


Winchester
Essex
Sakonnet
Hyannisport
Oyster Harbors


Each of these courses is walkable with the most strenuous likely being Winchester.  Winchester and Essex are both quite hilly.  Sakonnet, Hyannisport and Oyster Harbors are oceanside.  Considering the proximity to the water, there's some elevation on those as well. 

[Tim Martin]

Ross had some incredible sites here in the northeast including a few seaside ones…here are a few of the better, in my opinion:


Winchester
Essex
Sakonnet
Hyannisport
Oyster Harbors


Each of these courses is walkable with the most strenuous likely being Winchester.  Winchester and Essex are both quite hilly.  Sakonnet, Hyannisport and Oyster Harbors are oceanside.  Considering the proximity to the water, there's some elevation on those as well.

Chris-Longmeadow, Worcester, The Orchards, Waterbury, Wampanoag, and Metacomet are all in Mass, CT and RI to add to what you have above in the same general area. The cream of the crop being Worcester. As far as what you have listed Winchester is fantastic for natural topography and interesting land forms.

[Sean_A]

Sean - I was thinking Mimosa Hills when I read your thoughts on Roaring Gap, i.e. RG is more hilly than MH and it was a bit of a slog to walk whereas MH was closer to optimal. Completely perfect from hills + walkability is Old Town, but that's another discussion and not a Ross. Maybe Myers Park or Carolina CC which have some elevation changes that require thoughts before pulling a club but are bothe great walks.

Matt


Sure, Old Town is a good site, but it took some skills to minimize the effect of water.  If I recall, eight holes (discounting 9 & 18) have water which is "in play" but really well masked.  There is enough space to give the impression there are half that number of water holes.  So I gotta say the routing and greens really make a good site into an awesome course. 


Sorry Donald. 


Ciao

[BCowan]

Ross had some incredible sites here in the northeast including a few seaside ones…here are a few of the better, in my opinion:


Winchester
Essex
Sakonnet
Hyannisport
Oyster Harbors


Each of these courses is walkable with the most strenuous likely being Winchester.  Winchester and Essex are both quite hilly.  Sakonnet, Hyannisport and Oyster Harbors are oceanside.  Considering the proximity to the water, there's some elevation on those as well.

Chris,

How do those compare to Muskegon CC?  That is the best land of a Ross course I've played.  Majestic feel to it. 

[Phil McDade]

Beverly, particularly in the context of Chicago being incredibly flat.

I think the Bev is a much better example of great routing than a great site. There's some decent movement in the land -- notably the use of the ridge on the front nine on some of the better holes there -- but I've seen overall land that's better suited for golf than the Bev.


It's the routing that Ross utilized -- confined to two rectangular pieces of land -- that makes Beverly stand out for me. It's a really good golf course with a terrific routing over good -- but not great -- land, from where I sit.