What are Donald Ross's Best SITES?

[K Rafkin]

It is often said that the best sites make the best courses.


Donald Ross's two most acclaimed courses, (depending on who you ask) #2 and Seminole both sit on less than perfect sites.  Sure, Seminole is one of the few courses built on the atlantic, but all he had to work with were two North/South running ridges.  Im not trying to debate Seminole's "greatness", because it is a great.  I just don't believe that the site was all that special (although its probably pretty darn good for florida).  Pinehurst #2 sits on sand, but the site isn't exactly comparable to that of Cypress Point or Pacific Dunes. 

Without having the quote in front of me...Gil Hanse once said something along the lines that Plainfield was one of the very best sites Donald Ross was given.  While Plainfield is certainly a terrific site, I'm of the understanding that it wasn't without its flaws.  I've been thinking about the Gil Hanse quote for a while, and wondering if it really true.  If it is true, then how is it that one of the most acclaimed architects of all time, who is credited with 300+ courses, never got that opportunity to work on that perfect piece of land?


Im curious as to if Donald Ross who is said to "get the best from each site" truely did so.  If he did get the best from each site then i would imagine that his best courses are in fact on his best sites 


Anyway...What I'm looking for is examples of the best SITES Donald Ross had to work with, and not necessary the best COURSES he produced.



Are there examples of better sites he had to work with that didn't produce great courses?  Or did he get an overwhelming amount of Mediocre sites?


Any examples you can name, or any insight you can offer is greatly appreciated. 

[JNagle]

I have always liked the heaving rolling lands found in the Rochester, NY area.  Irondequoit, Monroe and Oak Hill has interesting land.  Revisited Salem this past fall and forgot about some of the land directly around the Clubhouse.  Winchester has wonderful elevation changes which Ross used well in his routing. There are some holes at Buffalo that are somewhat flat but the six holes routed in and around the quarry are fascinating.

[David Amarnek]

Gulph Mills GC is on a mighty good (and historic) site.

[Joe Bausch]

Gulph Mills GC is on a mighty good (and historic) site.

Agreed.

My best photo tour thread is probably this one on Gulph Mills from 2013:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55729.0.html

[Brett Wiesley]

Of those I've played:


Mid Pines
Scioto CC

[BCowan]

First, I disagree that Pinehurst #2 isn't a perfect site.  My 2nd visit I was blown away with how much change of elevation there was. 

Ross best sites I've played, by tier

Muskegon cc
Pine Needles

Mid pines
Franklin Hills
#2
Barton Hills
Scioto
Grosse Ile

Holston Hills
Ravisloe
Inverness
Southern Pines
Hope Valley

Roseland park
Broadmoor

[Bill_McBride]

The Broadmoor in Colorado Springs where the holes back up against the almost sheer cliffs of the mountain behind.  The influence of the mountain makes some putts unfathomable as they break uphill!

[Jason Way]

Of the Ross courses I have played, Essex County is on the best site by far.  The granite (I think) hill in the center of the property, around and over which the course plays is beyond cool.  Gently rolling hills and a meandering creek are also beautiful elements.


The property also has an interesting overall shape, so the course winds in and out of the corners taking the player on a wonderful adventure. 

[Frank M]

Agree fully. Essex County is just awesome.

Apart from that, also agree with the above poster who mentioned Rochester. The Rochester area courses - Irondequoit, Monroe, both Oak Hill courses - have absolutely great golf terrain IMO. Monroe is nearly perfect to me and Irondequoit is very unique...probably one of the biggest surprises in my entire golfing life.

[Nigel Islam]

Oakland Hills is a rather good site with the ridges it is built around. French Lick is decent. Belle Meade may be one of his worst sites.

[Mark Pritchett]

Aronimink

[Tim Leahy]

What about Peninsula CC in South SF area?

[Sean_A]

Never been there, but I gotta think Seminole is a good site boosted by areas with sand subsoil...anytime this is in place a site gets a big boost imo. 


Midpines is good, again sandy site, but also some wetter areas so not perfect. 


Pinehurst is obviously good, but without any real excitement. 


In pix Essex looks very good, but there is also a ton of unusual Ross architecture adding to the aesthetic of the site.


Ciao

[JESII]

My understanding of the original site at Seminole is that the low area was a marsh but the ridges were the attraction. I believe Ross (and crew) had to show off their engineering skill to turn it from a potentially good site into the great site it looks like today.


I think the rolling hills around Rochester and Philadelphia gave him a fair share of really good sites that he did well with. He did a lot of work in New England, no? Are there any dramatic, waterfront sites on his resume up there?

[Ian Andrew]

Glens Falls for me, much larger undulations than other places.

Jim's right, the area around Rochester is a terrific landscape for golf.

[Josh Tarble]

I think Holston Hills is a really good site for the course, but it's probably a bit similar to Seminole in that it's just one main ridge.

Judging by pictures, Roaring Gap looks to be a pretty good site, although maybe on the severe side.  That's also how I'd categorize French Lick.  It's very dramatic, but it had to be really difficult to find a routing that actually worked.  The hills are very steep and broad.

The more I think about it, my club, Broadmoor CC, its an pretty solid site, albeit on the small side.  Definitely not the best site, but pretty good.  We have a small stream running through, some nice undulation, especially on the back side and some nice flat sections. 

[Paul Jones]

I love White Bear Yacht Club and think that is a really good piece of land.

[PCCraig]

Assuming that Ross did in fact design the course, White Bear Yacht Club.

[Jeff_Mingay]

As Nigel and Ben point out above, Oakland Hills and Franklin Hills are both pretty exceptional sites. I'm also impressed with those properties in Minneapolis-St. Paul that Ross worked with, including Interlachen. However, as Pat Craig alludes to, there's some debate about who did what at places like White Bear and Minikahda for example.

[Paul Jones]

Assuming that Ross did in fact design the course, White Bear Yacht Club.

PCraig,

Why would you say Assuming? Do you have doubts that Ross did/did not design WBYC?

http://www.wbyc.com/Default.aspx?p=dynamicmodule&pageid=394400&ssid=316649&vnf=1

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben Cowan,

I haven't been to Pinehurst in many years, but was a bit surprised by your comments. My recollection - perhaps faulty - is that I wasn't overly impressed with the site itself.

Yes, there is elevation change. #4, 5 and 18 standout. Also, there are other holes with elevated greens - #1, 14 and 16.

Still, I just don't get to excited by the property. The cool stuff is what Ross did, #2 green complex, for example.

Help me out. How is my assessment of the Pinehurst property faulty?

Very interested to hear your comments or those from anyone else who shares your view.

[JNagle]

Two more sites come to mind.  Misquamicut in Rhode Island has great variety which includes ocean side holes and others with heaving undulations.  The 8th is a great "volcano" or plateau green much like the 7th at Lawsonia or the 6th at Buffalo.  There is also the difficult site at Allegheny C.C. in Sewickley, PA

[PCCraig]

Assuming that Ross did in fact design the course, White Bear Yacht Club.

PCraig,

Why would you say Assuming? Do you have doubts that Ross did/did not design WBYC?

http://www.wbyc.com/Default.aspx?p=dynamicmodule&pageid=394400&ssid=316649&vnf=1

Paul,


The club claims that Ross designed the course. But research here and elsewhere show a reasonable level of doubt that Ross actually designed the course. Many think Willie Watson is more responsible for the design. If you do a search on this site you'll find quite a bit of discussion on the subject from a few years ago.

[BHoover]

Oakland Hills, Brookside, and Scioto are very good sites. But I think The first two are better sites than Scioto.

Congress Lake is a good site too, but Willie Park was there first.

[Mike Hendren]

Thus far, this is one of the most insightful threads I've read in a while.  The opinions are quite diverse and I disagree with many of them.  Either that shows my sophomoric take on golf architecture or the fact that the definition of a good site is elusive.
 
I love Plainfield, but the tunnel holes replaced a dramatic up and down sequence now occupied by the driving range.  Ross nicely routed the holes along the other side of the hill, but I don't consider the site great.
 
I think Belle Meade is a fantastic site with the curving Richland Creek, the elevation changes on the two holes across Harding Road and the lone par four above the quarry.  The question is likely moot, however given H. H. Barker's initial involvement.
 
Glens Falls is perhaps a tad bit hilly for my taste (although the routing negotiates the land so beautifully) and Holston Hills offers little other than the clumsy use of the bluff for the throwaway 16th. 
 
The back nine at Teugega is as good as it gets, but the front keeps it down a little on the list. 
 
I think Idle Hour's site is underrated.
 
Generally, I'm not sure Ross needed the crutch/safety net of a great site.   I'm not sure his goal was to create masterpieces, but rather to offer challenging yet accomodating venues for people of all skill levels to enjoy the game.
 
Bogey