The merits of the short par 4 and the design of the par 5

[Ben Hollerbach]

 Scott McWethy's discussion on the merits of short par 4s started me thinking on the similarities between the risk reward opportunity from the tee compared to a short par 5's second shot. If one was to take a good or great short par 4 and stretch it another 200-250 yards would the resulting par 5 be just as good even if the drive was somewhat straight forward? If the resulting hole ended up with a wonderful drive into the original holes teeing zone would the new par 5 be considered a much better hole? Or is the charm of the short par 4 destroyed when the tee shot is now being hit as a second?

[Thomas Dai]

Nice idea Ben.


I was pondering something similar myself......the impact of adding a further 250-300 extra yds, even straightaway pretty blandish yardage, to a top-notch short par-4 and considering the outcome.


I was also wondering what would be the outcome if you took certain top-notch longer par-4's, such as say the 17th at TOC or Foxy-14 at Royal Dornoch, and played them at around 270-320 from the tee. Not suggesting that either original hole should actually be altered though, just using them as examples!


Similarly add 400 yds to a top-notch short par-3 and play it as a par-5.


Is it perhaps mainly about the greensite and the say 50 yds in front of the green?


Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Some short par-4's would make for great par-5's.  Some, not.  I think it mostly boils down to whether the hole's main defense is the green complex.  [The best greens would make a good hole at almost any length you played them.]


When you add the extra 250 yards to a short par-4, you are handing the long hitter a more likely opportunity of getting to the green ahead of his opponent ... the choice of whether or not to go for the green is simplified too much.

[Ben Hollerbach]

If the majority of these great short par 4's are made great by their green sites, then wouldn't it stand that lengthening the hole any distance would not diminish the quality of the hole? The 10th at Rivera at 315 yards is a brilliant hole, as a par 5 stretched to 570 yards I'd imagine it would be just as great. Even if the tee shot is relatively benign, the strength of the second shot would set up the play off of the tee. If the 10th was stretched to a length over 340 yards, but shorter than 550 yards would it still be a great hole? If no one could drive to or near the green in one and the shot off of the tee was about positioning your approach would it be a dramatically worse hole? I could see If the hole played as a long par 4 or short par 5, the green would become greatly unfair as it would be unaccepting of a typical longer approach and would become unfair for the shorter hitters.


It's clear that a superior green site goes a long way in making a hole, there is precedence in taking a redan style par 3 green and using it when building a par 4. It appears that at the same time the tee shot from short risk/reward par 4's could be translated into par 5's. But the crux of the transition appears to be preserving the length and style of the approach when translating it to the new hole.