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Thomas Dai

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Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2016, 12:26:50 PM »

Cayman balls have pimples rather than dimples. EbayUS has some for sale. None on EbayUK or else I'd get some to experiment with.


Were/are any other balls manufactured with similar (ie half distance) performance as the Cayman? If so which ones?


One other aspect of a severely restricted ball that would be nice were if the ball were significantly softer as well, such that getting hit by one didn't hurt or do much damage. This together with the distance limitation ought to allow golf to be played on smaller areas of land with narrower playing corridors etc. Less insurance, H&S, litigation etc issues as well, and a smaller playing area ought to mean less expensive golf, and quicker golf too. I wonder if back in yee-olde-days getting hit by a feathery ball hurt much?


Atb
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 12:54:18 PM by Thomas Dai »

BCowan

Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2016, 01:07:05 PM »

Cayman balls have pimples rather than dimples. EbayUS has some for sale. None on EbayUK or else I'd get some to experiment with.


Were/are any other balls manufactured with similar (ie half distance) performance as the Cayman? If so which ones?


One other aspect of a severely restricted ball that would be nice were if the ball were significantly softer as well, such that getting hit by one didn't hurt or do much damage. This together with the distance limitation ought to allow golf to be played on smaller areas of land with narrower playing corridors etc. Less insurance, H&S, litigation etc issues as well, and a smaller playing area ought to mean less expensive golf, and quicker golf too. I wonder if back in yee-olde-days getting hit by a feathery ball hurt much?


Atb

Lawyers will still get involved.  Getting hit by a ball makes u stronger.  You are really over thinking this.  People get hit due to erosion of manners in society.  Few yell 4 these days.  The golf courses are fine, it's the other stuff.  I would quit if I could only hit it 150 due to coercion.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2016, 01:30:41 PM »

Were/are any other balls manufactured with similar (ie half distance) performance as the Cayman? If so which ones?



Atb

Funnily enough, I popped into my local Decathlon store the other day and picked up some balls they had on offer at less than £3.00 a dozen for my young grandson to practice with. They are called "Aqua" and look and feel just like a regular ball but are light enough to float on water. My thinking was that my grandson would be able to get them airborne more easily.

I took the aforementioned balls and three-year old down to our practice ground and had him let rip. As hoped, the lightweight balls were much easier for him to hit but it was only when I had a go that I realised their full potential.

A well struck 9-iron flew exactly how I would have expected, but came down just before the 100 yard marker, a reduction of maybe 20% from my normal distance.  Likewise my 7-iron carried 125 yards as opposed to 150. The thing is, I would be more than happy to play a competitive round with these balls so long as everyone else did the same.

Unfortunately, it would appear that the cheap price I paid was because they have been discontinued, They are currently unavailable on Decathlon's website. Fortunately I picked up 5 dozen!

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/120-aqua-golf-balls-x-12-white-id_8338913.html


I am reminded of Dr MacKenzie's exhortation in "The Spirit of St Andrews" that the ball should be reined back and that the "floater" be the ball used.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 01:36:54 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2016, 05:01:01 PM »
[size=78%]Thanks for this info Duncan. I'll look out for them.[/size]


I also did a bit of web-searching and noticed that a few years ago there was a Callaway HX series ball that was supposed to only go 30% of normal distance and one called the Almost-Golf ball that was also a 30% ball. Both apparently aimed at folks who wanted to practice with a realistic feeling ball that could be used in restricted areas and wouldn't cause much damage. Anyone have any experience of using them?


Atb

Steve Lang

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Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2016, 07:21:34 PM »
 8)  this topic by Thomas is of interest to me as I continue to recover/rehab from some shoulder surgery, now 10 months ago.  Things ain't what they used to be, but that's OK.  I'm thinking of not moving up on tees until I can shoot par (like I did some 24 years ago at direction of my fav Mentor).  May never leave the forward tees with Ms Sheila!


In the extreme, one could go almost completely virtual in seeking enjoyment of the perfect golf swing...

I'll just do that as a check on things... 

ps i thought the CONGU system was without much controversy?  Just irritating the old farts?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 07:23:48 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Garland Bayley

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Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2016, 12:00:42 AM »
I have a couple of dozen Cayman balls that I bought for practice. I have played my regulation home course with them, and found them to be a lot of fun. A southwest Washington course Longview Country Club uses a reduced distance ball for their practice area/driving range. They are dimpled balls. I thought Cayman ball was a generic term for reduced distance balls until Dai pointed out they were the undimpled ones.


I played a few matches with ladies using the Cayman ball while they used regulation balls. I think more people would enjoy trying them.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2016, 12:15:42 AM »
It seems that there is an architect that is making a point of designing Cayman ball courses.
http://amickgca.com/cayman.htm

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Davis

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Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2016, 12:32:55 PM »
Seems to me loss of distance might affect the ego more than anything else. So what if you move up a set of tees or two. Wouldn't that suit most women's tees and make courses still quite interesting? I imagine being able to quite easily let go of ego in order to enjoy this great game from a set of tees that makes it interesting and challenging. My favorite part of the game is from 100 yds and in so that would still be there so yes I would love the game still and stick to courses that suit my game like this.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2016, 12:57:29 PM »
Hello,


I'm unclear as to the intended premise of this...for, in a vacuum, I could be delighted with the good flight and hit required to make something go a max of 150 bonnie yards... but on an existing course of 5500 + yards, it would be unsatisfying...is that what you're asking...?


Perhaps you mean, "now having acclimated to a longer hit (of 250-300 yards) could you be satisfied with a max 150, aesthetically?" If that is the case, it then still goes back to function; and "yes," if the function of (a proportionately shortened course containing) 150-400 yard two and three shot holes, credits a straight 150 yard drive ahead for the achievement of "4"....in that proportional case, I would get as much aesthetic fun from doing my 125-150 yard drives as I do from my 230-255 drives now.


I had the odd fortune of having extensive experience with the Cayman ball (my friend owned that particular manufacturing patent for a time, and had hundreds of them once) which goes about 37-50% of the standards of 1995-2005 "distances..." THAT ball was enjoyable to hit, watch fly, try and control and knock around and on the handful of occasions I took some to a Par 3/Executive course, it was almost a reboot of the game for me...it made these little municipal courses (Stratford, CT's Short Beach and Fairfield's Pine Creek, both near the water) like the Ailsa course...


That short ball was great; it had the right properties of spin and movement and rewarded clean hits and good swings, and didn't foozle out unduly on the poor ones... the only critique was that it didn't have quite the reliable feel for short game nips and pitches and only putted satisfyingly on fast surfaces...the slower ones (7.8 and below) interacted capriciously with one's intended line. I would think that further advances in technology in 35 years could revisit the problem without destroying the otherwise-good of that ball.


I love this subject but I can't boil down any further my conclusions on the topic of the ball. My fact of the matter is there ought to be a shorter tournament ball played for the championships of the leading national and international sanction organizations and the other 98.5% of us can play any rocket ball we want...states, counties, regions and individual clubs can all decide what they want to do for themselves, whether to use the tournament ball or a anything including a Robinhood if they like. the manufacturers still get to hawk what they want to hawk to the buying public, and now they have a second specialty market where they share the same manufacture specs and proceeds. Who knows, it might become a cache market for "Tournament" golf balls and "Unlimited" golf balls, which do you agree to play today.


If the 1% of tours, and golf associations and prize-competitions used a ball whose driver distance goes an average of 85% of what it does now...(say 290 yards...) then the courses need not be morphed to accommodate a tournament every 10-20 years...


And with money, it's no great trick to set up a course for elite play, for we know exactly what it takes to produce a significant demand on the elite 1.5% class of golfers. What IS a great trick is how to make the other 98.5 % provoked to amusement by that same course, which contains values of architecture we would have preserved, and not have destroyed for this concept of "I kill it like the pros do."


It seems so obvious to me, that the burden of this evolution... if it is to be checked for the good of preserving nuanced architectural values and a link to the game's past...must fall on the leading competitive golfers and their organizations to accept such a ball and for their sponsoring manufacturers to accept this slight alteration of the market, which, who knows, might give rise to a legitimate second tier market of product for them to build upon...like the tri markets of aluminum, composite and wood for baseball bats.


cheers


vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2016, 01:05:53 PM »
... My fact of the matter is there ought to be a shorter tournament ball played for the championships of the leading national and international sanction organizations and the other 98.5% of us can play any rocket ball we want...states, counties, regions and individual clubs can all decide what they want to do for themselves, whether to use the tournament ball or a anything including a Robinhood if they like. ...


My fact of the matter is that if you want to compete with a handicap, you need standardization, i.e., limits on the ball. Everyone that does not keep a USGA (or like organization) handicap, can play any rocket ball they want.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2016, 01:44:22 PM »
VK,

If I interpret correctly I think it's the second paragraph 'yes' that's appropriate!

Very interesting what you say about actually using the Cayman ball. I have another brand of short distance ball on order the usage of which I shall report back on following receipt and play.

You mention a tournament ball and other kinds of ball. A key element to me in all players using the same kind of ball is, as I said in an earlier response above, cost and time, namely: "Generally the bigger the playing surface the greater the cost. Cut back on the area of the playing surface and the cost will be less. The game ought to become more affordable and 18-holes, or however many you want to play, won't take as long."

Atb

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2016, 01:48:50 PM »
Hi Garland, and all.


I accept that as a legitimate consideration, and while I'm not ready to lay out a precise plan for such co-existence, I imagine it's largely an administrative one...


...now you keep two handicaps...Your USGA (in America) one which is the key to all its benefits and privileges of play played with the tournament ball that is the competition players standard, and Your "Open" handicap number...tabulated by rounds played with (mostly)unlimited equipment...individual parties of players will agree, as to what ball/equipment they are playing and how it impacts their allotted number accordingly. Clubs and regional organizations can now have two (2) types of competition, potentially they have doubled the terms...


cheers


vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you still play if....
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2016, 02:02:30 PM »
Hi Thomas,


1. (OK, now I understand the premise and it's yes...I can like watching a 150 yard driver fly...better still, I know I like a 70 yard 7-iron)


2. And if (as I think you mean) it is to not only check the destruction of classic courses in profile, but also save lands needed for golf as a conservation, economic and sustainability measure then...YES the short ball (Cayman or some other) would/should/could be the re-invigoration, reboot and the re-ignition of golf.


3. If an improved (meaning "better around the cup")short ball came out, then the number of ho-hum, quirky, 9-holers and executive courses become like incredible tests and venues for the basic golf operation.


3a. the Cayman ball was very, very sound in the wind...(I think that was the Cayman's major "advance" from perevious short-flight balls when Nicklaus was pushing its development in the 80s.


cheers


vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -