[Matt Kardash]

Is the design of the Stadium course at PGA West the exact moment when Pete Dye sold out?
Watching the tournament coverage I am amazed at the amount of water and the obvious similarities to Sawgrass. Whereas Sawgrass was original, PGA West seems to be a cobbling of rehashed concepts and out-takes from Sawgrass. Dye was even convinced to build another island green, which he apparently was not keen on doing.
This course feels like Dye selling out and giving the client and maybe the golf world at the time exactly what they wanted from him, but maybe not what he wanted to be doing.
Obviously it's not all bad, as there are actually a lot of cool concepts and holes on the course, but way too much seems like a copy.

PS. The deep bunker on 16 is kind of awesome.

[Jason Thurman]

My first introduction to great golf course architecture might have been EA Sports PGA Tour Golf, circa 1991, on the SNES. Even as a seven year old playing that video game and knowing nothing else about the evolution of the two courses, PGA West felt like a Sawgrass knockoff.


Both beat the bejesus out of Eagle Trace and Avenel though.

[Scott Weersing]

PGA West Stadium course opened in 1986 and this was not a good decade for gca. What was the best course that opened between 1980 and 1990? See, there aren't that many.


I am not sure it is a sell out but rather a time when architects tried different things instead of looking at what made a golf course great.


So I would agree that Dye would have designed it differently if he did what he thought was best.


Most architects have templates holes that they build on all their courses and PGA West Stadium has many of them. Is that a good or bad thing? I don't know.

[Tim_Weiman]

Is the design of the Stadium course at PGA West the exact moment when Pete Dye sold out?
Watching the tournament coverage I am amazed at the amount of water and the obvious similarities to Sawgrass. Whereas Sawgrass was original, PGA West seems to be a cobbling of rehashed concepts and out-takes from Sawgrass. Dye was even convinced to build another island green, which he apparently was not keen on doing.
This course feels like Dye selling out and giving the client and maybe the golf world at the time exactly what they wanted from him, but maybe not what he wanted to be doing.
Obviously it's not all bad, as there are actually a lot of cool concepts and holes on the course, but way too much seems like a copy.

PS. The deep bunker on 16 is kind of awesome.

Matt,


I have played PGA West several times, but only walked Sawgrass a couple times (during the Tournament). Personally, I prefer PGA West. Despite similar concepts - obviously - PGA West has its own feel and character, IMO.


Yeah, 16 is pretty cool.

[Tim Leahy]

As a Californian I was happy I didnt have to fly to Florida to play a Pete Dye championship course. Also it was at the time and arguably now the best public course in Palm Springs.

[Matthew Rose]

I'm not really digging the overseeded look, especially in some of the chipping areas. The seams are so pronounced in some places that it almost looks like Astroturf.

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm not really digging the overseeded look, especially in some of the chipping areas. The seams are so pronounced in some places that it almost looks like Astroturf.

There's no way to make it not pronounced! I, for one, love it. I played last month and had a great time.


I am surprised at the fluffiness of the dormant grass. I thought it would be tighter, typically redirecting balls into overseeded areas. I like it either way, though. I think it looks stunning.

[Tom_Doak]

"Sold out" is probably too strong a term ... have you sold out, Matt?


I drew the plans for the Stadium course, so I'm pretty familiar with how the process unfolded.  Landmark Land was Pete's #1 client and they wanted a tough, championship course as the centerpiece of their new development; they basically wanted something similar to the TPC in a different setting.  Plus, it was also a partnership with the Tour, and the Tour's program for stadium courses had been honed by Mr. Dye and Commissioner Beman at Sawgrass.  It wasn't exactly a radical departure for what Mr. Dye had been building for Landmark previously ... they liked their courses hard.  It was just a blank site to be lined with homes, where there was nothing else to distract from the program.


Pete did not really want to build an island green 17th hole and presented more than one alternative with water in play but not the island.  The client insisted on the island. 


Is that selling out, to not walk away from your biggest client under such circumstances?  If so, easy for you to say.  My personal impression was that Pete Dye never did anything for the money, because he didn't need to.

[Matt Kardash]

"Sold out" is probably too strong a term ... have you sold out, Matt?


I drew the plans for the Stadium course, so I'm pretty familiar with how the process unfolded.  Landmark Land was Pete's #1 client and they wanted a tough, championship course as the centerpiece of their new development; they basically wanted something similar to the TPC in a different setting.  Plus, it was also a partnership with the Tour, and the Tour's program for stadium courses had been honed by Mr. Dye and Commissioner Beman at Sawgrass.  It wasn't exactly a radical departure for what Mr. Dye had been building for Landmark previously ... they liked their courses hard.  It was just a blank site to be lined with homes, where there was nothing else to distract from the program.


Pete did not really want to build an island green 17th hole and presented more than one alternative with water in play but not the island.  The client insisted on the island. 


Is that selling out, to not walk away from your biggest client under such circumstances?  If so, easy for you to say.  My personal impression was that Pete Dye never did anything for the money, because he didn't need to.

Oh I agree saying he "sold out" is an exaggeration. I said it more for effect, and to highlight that this might have been the first time Pete Dye took a step back with his art in order to please a client. I don't blame him for it, as it is hard to turn down that kind of money. There are about 3 or 4 holes on the back nine that are exact replicas of Sawgrass, and not only are they replicas, but they are even featured as the same hole number!

Also Tom, I don't think I have actually ever sold out before. Maybe that's why I don't make a whole lot of money! 

[Thomas Dai]

Once upon a time........https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v-el1nJDX1M


Atb

[Joe Sponcia]

My first introduction to great golf course architecture might have been EA Sports PGA Tour Golf, circa 1991, on the SNES. Even as a seven year old playing that video game and knowing nothing else about the evolution of the two courses, PGA West felt like a Sawgrass knockoff.


Both beat the bejesus out of Eagle Trace and Avenel though.

Jason,


That is funny!  I remember hating PGA West and Avenel the most.  Sawgrass was my favorite even before I knew anything about golf because of the risk/reward nature (back in my freshmen year of college we called it "most chances for birdies").  Oddly (and no I'm not going to start a topic on this) I wonder how many kids took up the game after playing the video game(s) first, never holding a club. 

[Bill_McBride]

My first introduction to great golf course architecture might have been EA Sports PGA Tour Golf, circa 1991, on the SNES. Even as a seven year old playing that video game and knowing nothing else about the evolution of the two courses, PGA West felt like a Sawgrass knockoff.


Both beat the bejesus out of Eagle Trace and Avenel though.

Jason,


That is funny!  I remember hating PGA West and Avenel the most.  Sawgrass was my favorite even before I knew anything about golf because of the risk/reward nature (back in my freshmen year of college we called it "most chances for birdies").  Oddly (and no I'm not going to start a topic on this) I wonder how many kids took up the game after playing the video game(s) first, never holding a club.

Joe, so you hated PGA West but Sawgrass was your favorite?   That's tough to reconcile.  I prefer PGA West because the virtually identical holes play so much better when the golf course is a lot more fast and firm. 

[Tim_Weiman]

My first introduction to great golf course architecture might have been EA Sports PGA Tour Golf, circa 1991, on the SNES. Even as a seven year old playing that video game and knowing nothing else about the evolution of the two courses, PGA West felt like a Sawgrass knockoff.


Both beat the bejesus out of Eagle Trace and Avenel though.

Jason,


That is funny!  I remember hating PGA West and Avenel the most.  Sawgrass was my favorite even before I knew anything about golf because of the risk/reward nature (back in my freshmen year of college we called it "most chances for birdies").  Oddly (and no I'm not going to start a topic on this) I wonder how many kids took up the game after playing the video game(s) first, never holding a club.

Joe, so you hated PGA West but Sawgrass was your favorite?   That's tough to reconcile.  I prefer PGA West because the virtually identical holes play so much better when the golf course is a lot more fast and firm.

Bill,


I had the same reaction. Don't know how you could hate one and the other be your favorite.


Maybe Joe missed 16 to the left and could never finish???

[jeffwarne]

16 bunker looks cool.
A great substitute for the overused water. Really intimidating but possible and promotes a thoughtful layup


Loved hearing Johnny remark it was a  "funny" hazard yet he totally accepts water from which there is no recovery

[Joe Sponcia]

You would have to go back in a time machine and play the Sega Genisis PGA Tour video game to experience it.  This is having never seen either course on TV or in person...only playing it with a joystick.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played both a few times and will be back to Palm Springs in the spring. I loved Sawgrass the first time I played. I almost didn't play West because I had heard so many derogatory things about it: too hard, too punishing etc. I didn't find it either too difficult or too punishing. I came away thinking I could play it again. I just wish Pete had done a different 18th hole. The ubiquitous cape finishing hole gets tedious.

[Tim Gavrich]

I enjoyed watching the pros play the TPC Stadium course, and it seems it held up pretty well despite its sub-7,200-yard length. I'm not sure how Pete Dye building a course out West that is a similar sort of test to TPC Sawgrass is a compromise of principles or a selling-out. As many thousands of courses as there are between the two, I think there's room for both tone considered on their individual merits, rather than in relation to one another.


It's dumb that they didn't make the pros play the 255-yard tee on the 6th hole - an extension of the notion that it's dumb when the Tour moves tees up pretty much anywhere. If it's too much of an ego-bruiser for them, why even have that tee?

[Joe Sponcia]

"My Scotch blood comes to the fore again in prejudicing me against hazards which create the expense, annoyance, and irritation of losing balls or even searching for them. 

"The attitude of golfers and golf committees are amazingly inconsistent regarding water hazards.  On two occasions recently when designing a course I have been requested to avoid most beautiful lakes and yet on other occasions I have been asked to make a lake at enormous expense when there was not one exercising, and when far more spectacular hazards could be made in other way at a tenth of the costs".

For more than twenty years I have advocated that every hole on a golf course should have an alternative route for even the weakest of players"

(Excerpted) "Water Holes Should Tempt, Not torture" - Alister MacKenzie, Golfing Magazine

[Matthew Rose]

I had the video game "Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf" and one of the courses was basically an unofficial copy of PGA West, which seemed like a fitting association.

Watching the event on the telly this week, the 17th looks like a smaller target here than the one of its famous older sibling. Does anyone know how the two greens compare in size? Aside from the fact it is also a 30 yard longer shot, it would make sense for it to be a little larger. To my eye it looks smaller, but it could just be an optical illusion because of the ring of dormant grass as well as the rocks.

[Matt Kardash]

Measuring on Google Earth I would say they are actually roughly the same size. Also, the area around the bunker is more forgiving at PGA West, and the rocks actually can keep balls from rolling into water, as we saw with Dufner. The Sawgrass green is more angled, which therefore makes the daily pin location appear to be played to a smaller area. PGA West has a round green which makes it easier mentally to just hit it into the centre of the green no matter where the pin is.

[David Kelly]

I had the video game "Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf" and one of the courses was basically an unofficial copy of PGA West, which seemed like a fitting association.

I think PGA West Stadium course was included on Lee Carvallo's Putting Challenge as well.

[Matthew Essig]

".... longer than its sister hole at TPC Sawgrass, measuring 165 yards. PGA TOUR staff measured the green at 3,765 square feet; the 17th at TPC Sawgrass’ PLAYERS Stadium course measures 3,912 square feet. The tee is elevated, and players hit to a circular green surrounded by only a small sliver of fringe."

“I hit two in the water today,” said Patrick Reed. “I haven’t hit it in the water yet at 17 at Sawgrass.”

[Matt Albanese]

Here is an interesting article about the course from the PGA Tour site. There are a few quotes from Tom Doak as well. https://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2018/01/16/pga-west-stadium-course-controversy-1987.html. Quite a staggering comparison that it went from "too hard" in 1987 (24 under par rounds in 4 days, final round 16 scores of 77 or higher and 18 under par, scoring average 73.97) to 30th most difficult of 50 courses in 2017 (71.6 scoring average). Recall that the weather was unusually windy and cold last year. The scoring average was 70.8 in 2016. It is certainly not as difficult as it once was. Yet, many continue to deny that the game has changed dramatically in that time.

[Kyle Harris]

I had the video game "Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf" and one of the courses was basically an unofficial copy of PGA West, which seemed like a fitting association.

I think PGA West Stadium course was included on Lee Carvallo's Putting Challenge as well.

I thought I recognized that parking lot from somewhere!

[Jeff Schley]

Here is an interesting article about the course from the PGA Tour site. There are a few quotes from Tom Doak as well. https://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2018/01/16/pga-west-stadium-course-controversy-1987.html. Quite a staggering comparison that it went from "too hard" in 1987 (24 under par rounds in 4 days, final round 16 scores of 77 or higher and 18 under par, scoring average 73.97) to 30th most difficult of 50 courses in 2017 (71.6 scoring average). Recall that the weather was unusually windy and cold last year. The scoring average was 70.8 in 2016. It is certainly not as difficult as it once was. Yet, many continue to deny that the game has changed dramatically in that time.

Hey all, first post!  Played here numerous times and really enjoyed the challenge of having to be pretty precise.  You knew where to avoid as opposed to where to aim.  I walked this course during Q School several times with a friend who was qualifying and not surprisingly the bunker placement was it's best defense.  Great to be here and looking forward to conversing about one of my favorite subjects, golf course design.

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