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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« on: January 22, 2016, 05:40:13 PM »
Allowing the rough to grow up or naturalize between the tee and the start of the fairway is a practice that seems to be popular among courses in New England at places like Myopia, The Country Club, and Kittansett. It's a practice that I don't think has gained much popularity at courses here in Minnesota or in Chicago. Why is that? What are your thoughts on this? Do you like the look? Does it add to the aesthetic of a hole? Is it too penal on tight properties? How about the ladies...can you put this type of terrain in front of the "front" tees?

Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Could you or would you add a natural area in front of this otherwise straightforward tee shot?

 

Or how about this one (on the left side of the path and closer to the green)?

« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 05:43:45 PM by PCraig »
H.P.S.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2016, 05:56:36 PM »
I think this is a fantastic look. Maybe not on every hole on the course, but it's a great feature to use. Depending on the particular tee box, we have a few of these at Windsong.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 05:59:52 PM by Brian Hoover »

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2016, 06:09:58 PM »
It only works if the naturalized areas around the tees have larger surrounding naturalized areas to blend into.  Otherwise it just looks like they stopped mowing around the tees.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2016, 06:16:40 PM »
First off, I really like the look in general

But more than that, I've felt it could be a great cost saving measure for courses to implement, as it seems they could save on acres of land that doesn't need to be mowed, watered, fertilized, etc.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2016, 06:20:27 PM »
Can really add to the ambiance if the property's views are open enough. Where it can go wrong(ignoring the limitation of between tee and fairway):

Too close to lines of play

Too much movement of the edge....in and out and in and out.....blocks golfers ability to judge where a ball may have entered these areas

Wrong topo to use it on; see above concerning blockage of visuals

Wrong vegetation species/ unfettered density

Not in congruence with present irrigation system; see above

Not in congruence with overall course presentation

Etc.

To be implemented by professionals only(not really, but it isn't to be implemented willy-nilly)

Why it works on the East Coast: Strong caddy culture; someone always finds "your" ball.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2016, 07:59:01 PM »
I'd say, start with a gofundme tree felling, based on those photos.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2016, 10:14:19 PM »
 8)  You might want to consider both the flora and fauna at your location...   

back in 2002 when Roy Case destroyed The WCC's North Course in turning it into Panther Trails, he placed such natural areas on many holes replacing mowed grass, problem was, in the Houston area he ended up creating a nice habitat for snakes, various rodents, scorpions etc..  not so good 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2016, 07:56:00 AM »
Steve,


I recall an incident where Stonebridge Ranch GC near Dallas (Dye Course) had a lot of natives on the outside, and snakes became a problem, so they mowed a strip of grass near the housing lines to reduce it.  Snakes can be a problem in Texas!  I live near a lake and in this year's record rains, we have had over a dozen snakes in the house as they come up from low lying areas, including one Copperhead.....


Of course, this is about native/long grasses between tee and fairway.  I do think its a growing trend, especially out west.  There are a few problems and the details make a difference.


First, if up north in fescue country, the sprinklers in that area bascically need to be turned off.  Too much water and those wispy fescues get pretty thick, unplayable, etc.


Second, in other areas, its harder to find a good grass or native mix for it.  I have had the best luck just letting common bermuda go un-watered and long.  I have seen salt grass and paspalum look pretty nice as southern subs for fescue, watered perhaps once a month.  Establishing natives takes at least 3 years in most places, usually looks best in flower, not so good other times, and can get and stay weedy.


Third, I have seen some statistics showing about 20-25% of tee shots are duffed and don't go 100 yards, at least at public courses, so you have to consider pace of play, and maybe the forward two tees ought to not have much or any carry.


Even with all those negatives, the trend towards turf reduction to save water means these type of areas will almost certainly become more common.


Another interesting related point.  While the actual tees comprise of 5-7000 SF, or 0.1-0.15 AC, traditional double row sprinklers often water an acre to acre and a half of turf around tees, or about 10X what is really needed.  Even before the tee to fairway area,  I sense we are going to see a lot of natives tightly around tees as the first cut of turf reduction.  Very little sympathy for the pure whiff and shank tee shots finding long grass.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jamey Bryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2016, 11:30:42 AM »
 “In the British courses, heather, whins, and bent grass are in many cases left growing in a diagonal formation, producing a remarkably interesting hazard.  The best we can do over here is to let our grass grow long, following somewhat the same formation.

As a savings in mowing expense and as a hazard, long grass can be left in front of every tee, varying in width from seventy to one hundred twenty yards.  On short holes of one hundred fifty yards or less, it ought not to be necessary to cut any of the grass, except at intervals to keep it at such a height that balls will not continually be lost.
Such grass can also be left in patches through the fairway, where it will be of good service in stopping the run of topped balls.”

DONALD ROSS
“GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME”
 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2016, 01:38:13 PM »
PCraig,
 
The impetus for No-Mow is rooted in "cost to maintain"

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2016, 09:18:02 PM »
I actually like it. I can see where it could be imtimidating depending upon the actual carry that is required to make the fairway. I think it frames this hole (Shennecossett GC) quite nicely.

Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 09:35:23 AM »
Richard,


I have heard Alice Dye suggest that the maximum carry ought to be about 90 yards.  Others suggest 1/2 to 2/3 of the expected distance of the tee shot. We expect many women on the forward tees to hit 140 yard drivers, that is also 70 to 92 yards.  For senior men hitting 160-180, maybe 105-118, etc. 


I used that at Colbert Hills, including 200 yard carries from the tips.  One day, Jim Colbert was hitting test shots on the 4th into an rare, but not unusually high speed, facing north wind, and he couldn't reach the proposed turf area.  Of course, Jim wasn't a 300 yard hitter, more like 270, so that actual carry of about 180 still fits the formula. 

[/size]And, wind affects slower swing speeds even more, so it pays to be conservative on windy sites and where the prevailing wind is well known, on typically into your face tee shots for individual holes.[/size]
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 09:54:26 AM »
At my local dog track, they keep the grass native from the ladies tees to behind the back tees.
They do not have "constructed" tee areas either.   
Each week they mow small rectangular patches, place the tee markers in them and let the 'old' tees grow.

Some weeks you may have a sidehill tee shot on some holes, one way or another, but nobody seems to complain. 
It all evens out eventually. Just part of the challenge.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2016, 12:42:14 PM »
The effectiveness of this feature depends almost entirely on soil types and grass types.  The beautiful wispy rough in New England or the UK becomes lost ball gunch in more fertile Midwestern settings.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 01:11:47 PM »
Maybe not appropriate to all locations and environments but these could be used more - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bN_F0D0ItUQ


These are pretty good at clearing scrub as well - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iPey88wY-m0


....and you need surprisingly few of either of them to have quite a effect.


Atb

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2016, 09:42:05 PM »
I do love the mown walking path out to the start of the fairway from the tee.   What's in between is very dependent on the grasses that are easy to maintain in that area.


I remember walking Apache Stronghold with its walking paths straight ahead, and on several occasions being happy there were no snakes along the way!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2016, 10:14:23 AM »
I'd say, start with a gofundme tree felling, based on those photos.


Ouch.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2016, 10:17:43 AM »
The effectiveness of this feature depends almost entirely on soil types and grass types.  The beautiful wispy rough in New England or the UK becomes lost ball gunch in more fertile Midwestern settings.


Tom Doak,


What is the soil and grass make up of Crystal Downs? A couple of the photos I posted are of CD, which was the most "midwestern" of the examples I could find.
H.P.S.

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2016, 11:03:05 AM »
Jeff/Tom:


Keeping water off the areas is a must otherwise on the midwest as Tom says its very tough to find a  play a ball.  P[size=78%]art of the no-mow fescue areas purpose in our master plan is to provide "animal" corridors through the course.  The MP envisions the no-mows to be continuous as possible throughout the course, tying into OB rough areas so it looks as though it is a base color/texture throughout the course, not just a lack of mowing around a tee.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Regarding the distance to carry.  We have had that problem and complaint when we tried to cut the amount of fairway close to the tee and allowing it to become our standard 2" rough. Lot's of complaints.  So [/size][size=78%][/size]distance[size=78%][/size][size=78%] of carry more like 50-75 yards from the members tees.  IF our MP is implemented it would still keep the fescue areas to the sides and behind the senior/forward tees, and still keep mowed rough directly in front of the tees.  This is not [/size]goingg to be 100% true as 2-3 tees will have 50 yards of carry across fescue sandy [size=78%][/size]areas, but this is not the standard.  [size=78%]

[/size]Also where we have started to standardize our no-mows into no-water fescue areas, it has taken 2-3 years of chemicals and seeding and maintenance to get them started.  And then the last two years we've gotten a lot more water from above which defeats the no water issue.  So starting these areas and getting them to where they look great in the photos above (thank you to those posters) takes time and money.  The savings doesn't come right away.[size=78%]

[/size]Wonderful topic, and much debated at our club.[size=78%]
[/size]Tony[size=78%]

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2016, 11:10:54 AM »
Jeff/Tom:


Keeping water off the areas is a must otherwise on the midwest as Tom says its very tough to find a  play a ball.  Part of the no-mow fescue areas purpose in our master plan is to provide "animal" corridors through the course.  The MP envisions the no-mows to be continuous as possible throughout the course, tying into OB rough areas so it looks as though it is a base color/texture throughout the course, not just a lack of mowing around a tee.

Regarding the distance to carry.  We have had that problem and complaint when we tried to cut the amount of fairway close to the tee and allowing it to become our standard 2" rough. Lot's of complaints.  So distance of carry more like 50-75 yards from the members tees.  IF our MP is implemented it would still keep the fescue areas to the sides and behind the senior/forward tees, and still keep mowed rough directly in front of the tees.  This is not going to be 100% true as 2-3 tees will have 50 yards of carry across fescue sandy areas, but this is not the standard.

Also where we have started to standardize our no-mows into no-water fescue areas, it has taken 2-3 years of chemicals and seeding and maintenance to get them started.  And then the last two years we've gotten a lot more water from above which defeats the no water issue.  So starting these areas and getting them to where they look great in the photos above (thank you to those posters) takes time and money.  The savings doesn't come right away.

Wonderful topic, and much debated at our club.
Tony

Tony,

Where is your club? Who completed your master plan?
H.P.S.

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2016, 10:53:37 AM »
PCraig:


Port Huron Golf Club in Ft. Gratiot, Michigan on the north side of Port Huron.  It's one block off Lake Huron.  See my IMO piece for other info regarding our Charles Alison (1920,'21,'25, and '28) course.


Tony

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2016, 04:31:18 PM »
As I think about this some more, is it possible for the architect to "hide distance" or create the optical illusion that the hole plays longer than it really does? Would this be a reason rather than possible reduced maintenance costs?
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2016, 04:57:37 PM »
Richard,

I don't think the wispy grass hides distance as well as a subtle roll of ground. It just sort of hides whatever might be viewed behind it and tends to anger some folks.  I know we have to consider grass height and elevate tees a bit more just to be sure.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2016, 05:07:06 PM »
Richard,

I don't think the wispy grass hides distance as well as a subtle roll of ground. It just sort of hides whatever might be viewed behind it and tends to anger some folks.  I know we have to consider grass height and elevate tees a bit more just to be sure.


On a flat/straightforward hole, does it make the tee shot more interesting? Does it make it more intimidating for the better player if the grass hides just a little bit of the view of the fairway, even if the carry isn't significant? Or does it do anything to "frame" an otherwise straightforward tee shot?
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: No-Mow & Natural Areas between the Tee and Fairway
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2016, 01:00:11 PM »
Richard,

I don't think the wispy grass hides distance as well as a subtle roll of ground. It just sort of hides whatever might be viewed behind it and tends to anger some folks.  I know we have to consider grass height and elevate tees a bit more just to be sure.


There are several flat holes at Garden City Golf Club where the native grasses get so high by mid-summer that the tee shots are completely blind!

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