[Peter Pallotta]

This is an "homage" first and foremost, and my "thank you" to Sean A for years of exemplary course tours. As he knows, I have experienced these wonderful courses only through his photos and descriptions; but I have been deeply smitten by them, especially by those inland English courses of more modest fame and acclaim.

Also, besides not having played any of these courses, I have almost no experience with such "eclectic" or "composite" lists -- so little in fact that I had to sort of guess about the concept (I think I got it). But what I intended was simply to list courses and golf holes that over the years, through Sean's good graces,  I have learned about and been impressed by, for a variety of reasons. 

I am labouring under no illusion that this is even an informed list, let alone a compelling or definitive one.  (I don't even know what the total par is.)  Some of these holes I simply liked to look at best, and am almost certain are not the "best" representative of any given hole/spot in the sequence.   

As I say, it is my homage and thanks to Sean for all his work; please feel free (and I would very much enjoying seeing) your own "Arble's Composite, Eclectic and Affordable 18".   

I - the 1st at Camberly Heath
2 - the 2nd at Cleeve Cloud
3 - the 3rd at Cavendish
4 - the 4th at Alwoodley
5 - the 5th at Beau Desert
6 - the 6th Hunstanton
7 – the 7th at Burnham & Berrow
8  - the 8th at Sherwood Forest
9 – the 9th at Temple
10 - the 10th at Pennard
11 – the 11th at Stoneham
12 – the 12th at Addington
13 - the 13th at St George Hill
14 – the 14th at Notts
15 – the 15th at Little Aston
16 – the 16th at Littlestone
17 – the 17th at Rye
18 – the 18th at St Enodoc 

Peter

[Ronald Montesano]

This is a worthy endeavor. Hopefully those with playing experience will support the selections with some on-the-ground commentary.

[Bill_McBride]

I can't remember the 5th at Beau Desert, lots of good holes there, but I liked the 5th at Alwoodley better than the 4th. 

[Thomas Dai]

That's an interesting list Peter and I for one have visited courses purely on the basis of a GCA photo tour and narrative by Sean. I do though reckon that thunder will soon be heard in your neighbourhood following which a voice will boom out from the heavens the fabled word..........."Kington!".
Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

Thomas - besides everything else, I gained a new level of respect/admiration for folks who can do these eclectic-composite lists properly.  Man, it's hard to do well. Once I'd gathered up all the courses that I'd learned about and liked, and all the holes on those courses that I was fond of (sometimes, literally, for just the way the heather rambled into the fairways), I almost quit right then and there. I really liked Temple, for example, and had several holes highlighted, but how to pick only one, and which one? And then after I picked the 9th at Temple, I realized there were several other courses that had appealing 9th holes, and I got upset. As mentioned, I didn't even try to make sure I had a balance of Par 3s, 4s and 5s -- if I had, that would've been the end of me.  (I tried to figure that out this morning - so far, it seems that my love of Par 4s, combined with a few too many "cracking" Par 5s, has "my course" playing to a Par 75 - 37 out and 38 in -- and stretching well into the 7000 yard range!). You'll notice too that, in the name of some measure of affordability, none of the "Royals" made the list. Finally, and to paraphrase Flann O'Brien: "I declare before God that if I hear that name Kington one more time I will surely froth at the gob!"

Again, just a trifle this list is - and meant solely to highlight Sean's excellent work. 

Peter

[Tony_Muldoon]

Excellent stuff Peter you've done your homework. Although of course this thread is currently, Waiting for...the tin man.
 
FWIW, IMO  switch the last two to
17 St Enedoc
18 Rye
 
and find some room for Painswick and you're "there or thereabouts".
 

[Sam Andrews]

This is an "homage" first and foremost, and my "thank you" to Sean A for years of exemplary course tours. As he knows, I have experienced these wonderful courses only through his photos and descriptions; but I have been deeply smitten by them, especially by those inland English courses of more modest fame and acclaim.

Also, besides not having played any of these courses, I have almost no experience with such "eclectic" or "composite" lists -- so little in fact that I had to sort of guess about the concept (I think I got it). But what I intended was simply to list courses and golf holes that over the years, through Sean's good graces,  I have learned about and been impressed by, for a variety of reasons. 

I am labouring under no illusion that this is even an informed list, let alone a compelling or definitive one.  (I don't even know what the total par is.)  Some of these holes I simply liked to look at best, and am almost certain are not the "best" representative of any given hole/spot in the sequence.   

As I say, it is my homage and thanks to Sean for all his work; please feel free (and I would very much enjoying seeing) your own "Arble's Composite, Eclectic and Affordable 18".   

I - the 1st at Camberly Heath
2 - the 2nd at Cleeve Cloud
3 - the 3rd at Cavendish
4 - the 4th at Alwoodley
5 - the 5th at Beau Desert
6 - the 6th Hunstanton
7 – the 7th at Burnham & Berrow
8  - the 8th at Sherwood Forest
9 – the 9th at Temple
10 - the 10th at Pennard
11 – the 11th at Stoneham
12 – the 12th at Addington
13 - the 13th at St George Hill
14 – the 14th at Notts
15 – the 15th at Little Aston
16 – the 16th at Littlestone
17 – the 17th at Rye
18 – the 18th at St Enodoc 

Peter

Swap 16 and 17,

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much, gents. I do indeed need some help. Maybe it's Sean's appealing descriptions and/or my innate fondness for English topography, but while I'm not surprised that I have so many Par 4s, I am surprised that I have 4 Par 5s, with 3 of them on the back. Currently, the 'card' is Par 75 (37 out, 38 in) with a total length of some 7,590 yards!

The 10th, 12th and 15th are Par 5s, and I have only 1 Par 3 (and I'd be a bit sad to lose one that is 200+ yards long, especially from Pennard). I think if I can find a Par 4/Par 3 12th hole (perhaps from Painswick) and 15th hole (yes, from Kington) I'll at least have the satisfaction of a Par 73 that plays to something like 7300 from the back.

And yes, I hope our Man of the Hour adds his very own "Arble's Composite, Eclectic and Affordable 18".   

Peter

[Peter Pallotta]

Now, I must say, in doing what I'm about to do I'm moving away from my main intention, which was simply to celebrate Sean's contributions here (and my own personal favourites) - and moving towards trying to make a "legitimate" eclectic composite. But with that said, and deferring to on the ground experience, I've added the 15th from Painswick (a 150 yard Par 3) and the 12th from Kington (a 200+ yard par 3) - which has the added bonus of reducing the number of Par 5s (to two), addressing a dearth of Par 3s (now up to 3 of them) and leaving me with 13 of my beloved Par 4s, and with a more manageable total yardage of about 7200 and a charming Par 71 course.  (I'm sorry to see the Addington and Little Aston go - by I'm utterly charmed by courses like Camberly, Temple, Cleeve Cloud, Cavendish and Sherwood that I can't bear to lose them ).

I - the 1st at Camberly Heath
2 - the 2nd at Cleeve Cloud
3 - the 3rd at Cavendish
4 - the 4th at Alwoodley
5 - the 5th at Beau Desert
6 - the 6th Hunstanton
7 – the 7th at Burnham & Berrow
8  - the 8th at Sherwood Forest
9 – the 9th at Temple
10 - the 10th at Pennard
11 – the 11th at Stoneham
12 – the 12th at Kington
13 - the 13th at St George Hill
14 – the 14th at Notts
15 – the 15th at Painswick
16 – the 16th at Littlestone
17 – the 17th at Rye
18 – the 18th at St Enodoc 

[Peter Pallotta]

And just as an aside, the average Doak Scale score for the 16 out of 18 courses that have been assigned a rating (Cleeve Cloud and Temple have no scores) is......6.5

Technically, that means my "Arble Composite, Eclectic and Affordable 18" is "a very good course"; but to me, a very good course is just perfect! 

Peter

[Sean_A]

Very fine and very kind Pietro 


You have selected an interesting lot of courses.  Using the same courses as your revised list


1. SGH  384 (down n' up)


2. Camberley Heath 140 (strong uphill)


3. Notts  482 (downhill...awesome approach)


4. St Enodoc  279 (uphill...great use of crappy piece of land)


5. Beau Desert  384 (down n' up...superb green and cross bunker)


6. Hunstanton  299 (volcano green)


7. Pennard  335 (humpty bumpty down n' up..one of the best pair of bunkers in golf)


8. Alwoodley  493 (flatish...great green contour running awkwardly with dogleg)


9. Rye  300 (humpty bumpty with fairway feeding to left bunker)


10. Temple  235 (flat...most unusual blind par 3)


11. Sherwood Forest  425 (flattish, tough bunkering)


12. Cavendish  178 (severely uphill...unusal take on the Redan)


13. Stoneham  250 (blind with a great green and bunkering)


14. Painswick  300 (awesome lay of the land greensite) 


15. Burnham & Berrow  438 (up n' and up n' over...humpty bumpty through the green)


16. Littlestone  469 (uphill)


17. Cleeve Cloud  390 (downhill...blind...with the mother of all quarries waiting down the left)


18. Kington  268 (severely downhill...greatest finishing hole in golf...AKA MB's)


Par 70   6049 yards (in praise of yellow tees)


Only three holes the same...but three doozies. Painswick & Rye are the two head scratchers for me. 


Its quite obvious I have a likeness for the 200-300 yard range holes...7 in total 


Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Sean.

I wouldn't think of comparing our courses (in terms of quality) under any circumstances - that would be foolish of me. But I especially won't because I know that I'm a sucker for beauty (indeed, it's been the ruin of me!). And for me, to start with the welcoming, sweeping, lovely simplicity of the 1st at Camberley,  and then to finish with 18th at St Enodoc, hitting my approach towards the homely charm of the understated house, and with all that I like about  English inland courses on display right in the middle, with the 9th at Temple -- well, this strikes me as everything any reasonable man could want or expect.  That I have a stern and varied 7200 yard test with only two Par 5s and a fine set of Par 3s is a bonus!

Thanks again.
Peter

[Colin Macqueen]

Peter,
You are living vicariously, understandably as you are in the grip of a Canadian winter, but in doing so give us an 18-hole course of great interest. Just like Thomas the courses I have played when visiting The British Isles have been "Arbled". I suspect your homage may well induce fellow GCAers to seek out Sean's wonderful tours and this ".....knowledge is the wing wherewith we fly to heaven".


Cheers Colin

[Sean_A]

Pietro

I think it has been clear the two of us have different ideas of what we want to see in a golf course and I admit that it is me who is the man out. 

Yes, I can fully understand the allure of Camberley's opening hole.  It is somewhat similar to SGH's...more severely down n' up...each hole sets up the round well.  Though it was hard not to use the 10th, but that had to be reserved for Temple's count.  Its not a hole I really like in terms of quality, but I do love its originality.   


The 18th...well you know it has to be MB's.  No other hole is anywhere near as fun as this finisher.  I am not all that thrilled with St E's finisher.  The approach is excellent, but the drive is of the gathering type and any decent drive will leave a reasonable approach.  To me, St E's iconic holes are 3, 4, 6 and 10 (and they truly are iconic which is the sole reason I rate the course so highly...how many courses have four iconic holes?)...so one of those would have to be chosen. 

There are always very hard compromises in these excercises and I wonder if its anything like the compromises archies make when buiding courses. 

Ciao 

[Sam Krume]

whilst I agree with most I would like to put forward the 2nd at Perranporth. Whilst the 2nd at Camberley is a lovely par3, the 2nd at Perranporth is one of my all time favourite golf holes. A real marmite hole.

[Sean_A]

Sam


Perranporth has a lot of good candidates for one reason or another; 2, 3, 6, 9, 11, 13, 14 & 18.  Its one of my favourite courses and one I would try to see represented on a composite 18.  Though...I am very partial to 6. Excellent short 3s are hard to come by.


Ciao

[Sam Krume]

Sean
too true, #6 lovely little hole. Have you played Ilfracombe? i think its the 4th which as a par3 measures something like 90 yards, playing over a chasm too a tiny green.

[Ed Tilley]

Sean
too true, #6 lovely little hole. Have you played Ilfracombe? i think its the 4th which as a par3 measures something like 90 yards, playing over a chasm too a tiny green.

75 yards from the tips on a very windy site to a tiny green - quite wide but only a few paces long.

[Peter Pallotta]

I realized a little later that this thread being (consciously) an homage to Sean's course tours it was also (unconsciously) my praising of the "Doak 6", ie my grateful view and belief that "very good" is good enough, and that as long as the world of golf has - and continues to value - its "6s" the game will live long and prosper, especially in terms of what really matter, ie providing countless golfers of all ages and skill sets with countless hours of immeasurable enjoyment.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, if only a "6" didn't SOUND like a low score, everyone would realize what a great lot of golf those courses comprise.


I haven't time to come up with a full 18 holes right now because I have spent the day consulting at Pennard, and I'm exhausted.  I knew as soon as I read Peter's stab at an eclectic that Sean would switch out the 18th hole for Kington.


For what it's worth, though, along the lines of Sean's thinking:


Painswick would have to be the par-3 6th hole, if you want the best of it; the 5th as a backup plan.
Rye you could use almost any of the short holes [except the 17th], but for me it would be the 4th, and for others the 13th or 15th or 16th.
Pennard would be the 7th, surely though there are other worthy holes.
St. Enodoc, if not the 4th [see above], probably the 10th for its quirk.  The 18th is a great hole but I like Sean's choice as well; those two are about as different in character as you could get.


I do HATE that my favorite holes at Rye, St. Enodoc and Cruden Bay are all the 4th hole, so you can choose only one of them for an eclectic.

[Sam Krume]

Sean
too true, #6 lovely little hole. Have you played Ilfracombe? i think its the 4th which as a par3 measures something like 90 yards, playing over a chasm too a tiny green.

75 yards from the tips on a very windy site to a tiny green - quite wide but only a few paces long.








Ed,
Forgotten that it was that far!! I do remember hitting a 9 iron into though, you could say there was a little breeze coming in from the Bristol Channel...

[Sean_A]

Tom


Kington's home hole is in automatically 




It was hard to cut out Painswick's 6th, but Hunstanton's 6th is worth the trade as good par 3s are easier to come by.  I also wanted a few holes I don't really like, but admire because they are awkward...all courses need a hole or two like this...step up Painwick #2.  Besides, no way, no how would I ever choose Painswick's 5th.  I really dislike the hole and on a course which ideal for beginners and packed with holes my grandma can play...this is the one that isn't even attemptable. Its a dubious hole, but better than the 1st  .  If I was going for a blind short hole the 10th would easily take the cake for me.  If I could find another loooong par 3 other than Temple's... which is cool, I would go for Painswick's. 


Ciao

[Matt Dawson]

Sean

Interesting no space for 2nd or 5th at Royal Worlington in your list

I haven't played Beau Desert so can't comment, but it must be a pretty special 5th hole to displace RW&NGC. Ditto the 2nd at Camberley Heath.

I was also surprised by the inclusion of 17th at Rye...

[Sean_A]

Matt


I only used the courses Pietro used. 


Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean was hemmed in and had his choices limited by his kindly (if ill-conceived) decision to use the same 18 courses (if not the same holes) as I did. As I tried to suggest, and to the detriment of Sean's eclectic 18, my list has little merit and aspired not to being definitive but simply to being honest. I like quietly pretty golf holes on inland English topography, and so that is what I featured. So the blame is mine if Worlington is not featured anywhere; I have no doubt too much fondness for courses like Sherwood and Temple and Cleeve Cloud and Camberley. And the 17th at Rye is a long tough Par 3, which I have an unusual fondness for as well; the "par is just a number" crowd should be able to love it as a driveable Par 4

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