News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
W. Watson
« on: December 19, 2015, 02:49:26 AM »
Mr. Watson's first name is "William" in all contemporary news articles with references to him, or at least all that I have seen.  Mr. Watson used "William" in contemporary advertisements for his services.

Is there any basis for using "Willie" as his first name?  I do not believe there is, but if there is, please let me know.

Barring evidence to the contrary, I think it would be proper for references to Watson in rankings, course commentaries and the like should use "William Watson" as his proper name.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2015, 08:34:34 AM »
Interesting.  Where did we all go wrong then?  I had to have learned Willie either from the Cornish and Whitten book, or George Thomas' book which included some of Watson's drawings for Belvedere.  Surely Thomas didn't get it wrong?

Then again CH Alison is often called by his first name Charles in articles, or by his initials, even though he clearly used his middle name, Hugh, for all social occasions.

For the record, I've alway gone by Tom, even though my given name is Thomas.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2015, 09:05:56 AM »
Perhaps it's a commentary on the social mores of the time. Sunday best name for formal occasions and shortened name for friends. Perhaps Cornish & Whitten felt they knew Watson well enough to call him Willie (did they know him ?).

Or perhaps C&W have gotten into the modern habit of calling people after their first names even though they have never met them before ?

Niall

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2015, 09:29:57 AM »
Hmmmmm...I think I will just call him Willie....my middle name is also William but am often called Mike... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2015, 10:01:07 AM »
 8)  YA mean that St.Andrews educated Scottish lad Wee Willie Watson? Fine player he was growing up, and then went off to Minnesota in the USA!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 10:07:27 AM »
Kevin is correct.


Some years ago, the late, great Tom MacWood and myself, along with Tony Pioppi embarked on a co-project to find out as much about William Watson as possible. Three dedicated researchers on a Golf Course Architecture turned up photos and facts that we felt were never properly given their due, especially William Watson's importance in the story of Golf in America.


I can honestly say, the story has no end, while finding out more information in my own research since Tom MacWood's unfortunate passing.  Much of it corroborating what Tom found, and this is a great thing too, because as time moves along; the further meeting of people who were equally interested has turned up even more! People that were more mesmerized by the Watson family itself, not just William's courses.


The fact is William Watson went by that name, and that name only.  Two of our sources, one of them being Tom MacWood say that he detested the name "Willie" because when Watson came to this country, he was in his forties--a grown man. if anyone back then called him that, then they were wrongly informed. Back in those days--and I think you can appreciate this Tom, a George Thomas calling a gentleman older then him, "Willie" would have been viewed as disrespectful.  I do think the confusion stems from William Park Bell, due to his age, size and stature, as well as his previous occupation as caddie master at Annandale, being called both Billy and Willie. With Watson obviously helping Bell's career, eventually both in the same business as competitors, over time, that mistake multiplied.

William Watson, wasn't the only Watson designing golf courses either.  His father, John Cobb Watson was well respected as an Royal and Ancient member of some wealth in his success in growing flak seed.  He was also the one that laid out Annandale's geometric featured golf course, while William's younger brother, Thomas Martin Watson was responsible for the original Arroyo Seco links, and then eventually Griffith Park, which Tom Bendelow is wrongly given credit for.  This course is now the site of the Los Angeles Zoo.

As far as the mans architecture, I feel that it goes into the realm of classic, strategic design which it would seem that Watson was incredible at routing golf courses.  I think it was his strength.  I think he excelled at using natural landforms as a way of running the ball off of them, away to more difficult next shots or carrying them where the strategies were taken advantage of. One of the nit-picks at the time was that Watson's courses were extremely difficult, especially heavily bunkered.  From the looks of it, they were all thoughtfully placed.

More to come.





« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:13:18 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2015, 11:28:19 AM »
Tommy, isn't it more likely that the confusion arose from the Willie as in Willie Park, Jr?  Both from Scotland, contemporaries (?), maybe people of that time thought a Scot named William was just naturally called "Willie."

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2015, 03:49:49 PM »
Interesting.  Where did we all go wrong then?  I had to have learned Willie either from the Cornish and Whitten book, or George Thomas' book which included some of Watson's drawings for Belvedere.  Surely Thomas didn't get it wrong?

Tom,

I checked, and confirmed that Thomas uses "William" in Golf Architecture in America.

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2015, 06:29:34 PM »
C&W have him listed as  William "Willie" Watson, so do numerous club websites (Orinda, Salt Lake, Olympic, Charleviox, Arrowhead, Minikhada, San Gabriel, etc.), magazines like Michigangolf, sites like Cyber Golf, even Geoff Shackelford calls him Willie in "Grounds For Golf".


Cats out of that bag. ;)
 
I would guess that he probably preferred William, if for no other reason than to differentiate himself from the multitude of other Scottish Willies in late 1800s, early 1900s America.   




 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 07:36:55 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2015, 07:35:12 PM »
Jim, you can take it to the bank that Orinda will be changing that reference.   ;)

Put Hacienda in the William camp also.  http://www.haciendagolfclub.com/golf-course

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 08:20:34 PM »
Saying he was known as William in "all" contemporary reports is incorrect. A quick search on Newspapers.com returns the earliest reference to Willie Watson in the 1/4/1900 Chicago Inter Ocean, which covered golf thoroughly. There are far more references to William Watson.


But best of luck finding a really good picture of him.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

BCowan

Re: W. Watson
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 08:25:41 PM »
I was looking at an old thread where TMac had an article of Toledo CC and it attributed the course to Mr Watson.  It couldn't have been Park Jr, because he hadn't arrived in the US till 16'.  Do you have anymore info on Toledo CC as it pertains to Mr Watson? 

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 08:50:15 PM »
But best of luck finding a really good picture of him.

True, he wasn't one to sit down for photographs very much, if at all.  Tommy found a good photo of Mr. and Mrs. Watson at the Bancroft Library in Berkeley, though.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 08:54:33 PM »
 8)  Ben,


This reference from Belvedere GC has WW remodeling TCC and expanding it...


http://www.belvederegolfclub.com/History/CourseArchitectWilliamWatson.aspx




GOLF COURSE ARCHITECT WILLIAM WATSON


Architect William Watson worked on such famous layouts as Olympic Club, site of five US Open's including 2012, Olympia Fields (2003 US Open), Interlachen, where Bobby Jones won the Grand Slam, and Harding Park, site of the 2009 Presidents Cup. Other top courses Watson designed include:
  • Hexham Golf Club – Hexham, Northumberland, Scotland 1892
  • The Minikahda Club – Minneapolis, MN 1898 (w/Foulis)
  • Hollywood Country Club – Hollywood, CA 1898
  • Casa Loma – Redlands, CA 1899
  • Ferndale Course – Ferndale, MN 1899 (6 hole course)
  • Hotel Green – Pasadena, CA 1899
  • Bryn Mawr Golf Club – Minneapolis, MN 1899 (r)
  • Hotel Raymond – Pasadena, CA 1900 & 1901 (r)
  • Pasadena Golf Club – Pasadena, CA 1900 (r) & 1920 (r)
  • Garvanza Links – Pasadena, CA 1901
  • Seattle Golf Club – Laurelhurst, WA 1901
  • Menlo Golf Club – Redwood City, CA 1901
  • L.A. Golf Links – Pasadena, CA 1902
  • Alexandria Golf Club – Alexandria, VA 1903 (r)
  • Hotel Frontenac Golf Club – Round Island, NY 1904 (r ex)
  • Presidio – San Francisco, CA 1905
  • Shawnee Country Club – Lima, OH 1905 (r)
  • Annandale Golf Club – Pasadena, CA 1906 : 1919 (r)
  • Denver Country Club – Denver, CO 1907 (r)
  • La Cumbre Golf Club – Santa Barbara, CA 1908
  • Interlachen Country Club – Edina, MN 1909
  • Toledo Country Club – Toledo, OH 1909 (r & ex)
  • Virginia Country Club – Long Beach, CA 1909
  • Homewood Country Club – Homewood, IL 1910 (r) (now Flossmoor)
  • Brentwood Country Club – Brentwood, CA 1910
  • Westmoreland Country Club – Wilmette, IL 1911
  • The La Crosse Club – La Crosse, WI 1912
  • The Albuquerque Commercial Club Golf Links – Albuquerque, NM 1912
  • Altadena Country Club –Altadena, CA 1912 (later Pasadena Golf Club)
  • Ravisloe Country Club – Homewood, IL 1912 (r)
  • Thousand Islands Country Club - Alexandria Bay, NY 1913 (r)
  • Midwick Golf Club - Los Angeles, CA 1913
  • Moorland Golf & Country Club – Homewood, IL 1913 (w/Bendelow)
  • The Golf Links – Wellesley Island, NY 1913
  • San Marcos Hotel Golf Course - Chandler, AZ 1913 (w/Harry Collis)
  • Diablo Country Club – Diablo, CA 1914
  • The Huntington – Pasadena, CA 1914
  • Lincoln Park – San Francisco, CA 1914 & 1922 (r)
  • Evanston Golf Club – Evanston, IL 1914 (r & ex)
  • Fargo Country Club - Fargo, ND 1914
  • Tucson Country Club – Tucson AZ 1914 (now the site of Randolph North)
  • Onwentsia Club – Lake Forest, IL 1914 (r)
  • Kalamazoo Country Club – Kalamazoo, MI 1915 (r & ex)
  • White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN 1915 (w/Ross)
  • Olympia Fields Country Club #1 – Olympia Fields, IL 1916 (r & ex w/Bendelow)
  • Minneapolis Golf Club – Golden Valley, MN – 1916 - 1920 (r & ex w/Bendelow – today Golden Valley Golf & Country Club)
  • Winona Country Club – Winona, MN 1917
  • Culver City Country Club - Culver City, CA 1917 (changed to The California Country Club) 1920 (r)
  • Olympia Fields Country Club #2 – Olympia Fields, IL 1918
  • Inglewood Country Club – Inglewood, CA 1919
  • Wanakah Country Club – Hamburg, NY (r) 1919
  • Ingleside Club – Phoenix, AZ 1919
  • San Diego Golf & Country Club – Chula Vista, CA 1920
  • Olympia Fields Country Club #3 – Olympia Fields, IL 1920 (w/Bendelow)
  • Flintridge Country Club – San Gabriel, CA 1920
  • Claremont Country Club – Claremont, CA 1920 (r & ex)
  • Berkeley Golf and Country Club – Berkeley, CA 1920 (w/ R. Hunter - now Mira Vista Golf & Country Club)
  • San Gabriel Country Club – San Gabriel, CA 1920 (r)
  • The Country Club – Salt Lake City, UT 1920
  • Hacienda Golf Club – La Habra Heights, CA 1920 (w/ Charles Mayo)
  • Hillcrest Country Club - Los Angeles, CA 1920
  • Griffith Park #1 – Los Angeles, CA – 1921 (r)
  • Colorado Springs Golf Club – Denver, CO 1921
  • Ridgeview Country Club – Duluth, MN 1921
  • Oakland Links at Lake Chabot – Oakland, CA 1921
  • Beverly Terrace Golf Club – Oakland, CA 1921
  • Roaring River Golf Club – Roaring River, MO 1921
  • Sunset Canyon Country Club – Burbank, CA 1922
  • Burlingame Country Club- Burlingame, CA 1922 (r & ex)
  • Encinal Golf & Country Club – Alameda, CA 1922
  • Stoughton Country Club – Stoughton, WI 1922
  • Coronado Golf Club – Coronado, CA 1922
  • San Francisco Municipal Links, San Francisco, CA -1922
  • Rocky Mountain Country Club, Denver, CO - 1922
  • Lincoln Park – San Francisco, CA 1922 (r)
  • Las Turas Golf & Lake Club - Oxnard, CA 1923
  • Mt. Diablo Country Club – Oakland, CA 1923 (r & ex)
  • Griffith Park #2 – Los Angeles, CA 1923
  • Lake Arrowhead Country Club – Lake Arrowhead, CA – 1923
  • East Bay Country Club – Oakland, CA 1923
  • Clover Field Golf Course – Santa Monica, CA 1923
  • Fort Washington Golf & Country Club – Fresno, CA 1923
  • Orange County Country Club - Santa Ana, CA 1923 (now Santa Ana Country Club)
  • Olympic Club (Lake Course) – San Francisco, CA 1924
  • Southern California Athletic and Country Club - Lake Elsinore, CA 1924
  • Olympic Club (Ocean Course) – San Francisco, CA 1924 (w/ Whiting)
  • Clear Lake Highlands – Clear Lake, CA 1924
  • Encino Country Club – Encino, CA1 1924
  • Orinda Country Club – Orinda, CA 1924
  • Westward Ho Golf Club – Sawtelle, CA 1924
  • Lake Side Golf Club – Toluca Lake, CA 1924
  • San Jose Country Club - San Jose, CA 1925
  • Los Angeles Athletic Club – Santa Monica, CA 1925 (w/ B. Bell & G. Thomas)
  • Belvedere Golf Club – Charlevoix, MI 1925
  • Minni-Monesse Golf Club – Momence, IL 1925
  • Multnomah Golf Club – Portland, OR 1925
  • Foothill Blvd Club – Oakland, CA 1925
  • Harding Park – San Francisco, CA 1925
  • Belmont Country Club – Los Angeles, CA 1926
  • San Gorgonio Country Club – Beaumont, CA 1926 (9-hole)
  • Grass Valley Club – Lake Arrowhead, CA 1926 (9-hole)
  • South Shore Golf Club – Momence, IL 1927
  • Women's Golf & Country Club – Van Nuys, CA 1927
  • Hotel Del Mar Golf Club – Del Mar, CA 1927
  • La Jolla Country Club – La Jolla, CA 1927
  • Momence Links – Momence, IL 1928
  • Oak Knoll Golf Links – Oakland, CA 1928 (r)
  • Sonoma Golf Club – Sonoma, CA 1928 (w/ Whiting)
  • El Sobrante Golf Club – San Pablo, CA 1929
  • Charlevoix Golf Club - Charlevoix, MI 1930 - 1931 (r)
Other Clubs: Unknown dates but all prior to 1920:
  • Paso Robles Country Club – Paso Robles, CA
  • Long Beach Club – Long Beach, CA  (r)
Other Clubs: Unknown dates but all prior to 1924:
  • Clearlake Golf Club – North San Francisco, CA
  • Pleasanton Country Club – San Jose, CA
   ex = expansion
    r  = remodel

William Watson:St. Andrews’ gift to BelvedereBy: Dennis “Marty” Joy II
William Watson, Belvedere Golf Club’s architect, was born March 31, 1860 at his family’s Dura Den Cottage in Kemback, Fife, Scotland to Mary & John Cobb Watson. William was the first of seven siblings – three boys and four girls. His father, John, was a very successful businessman employing over 260 men & women in his flax seed mills and on his farms. The Watson’s cottage was eight miles removed from the holy grail of golf, St. Andrews golf club. As luck would have it, John was a member of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews and he shared his loved for the game of golf with an eager William.

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 12:23:23 PM »
While we're at it, can we start calling Mike "Kaiser" by his real name too?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2015, 01:33:00 PM »
As a wee laddie in Dura Den, William would doubtless have gotten 'Wullie' or even 'Wull' and Watson would have rhymed with hats on, not what's on.
Simple!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2015, 02:08:14 AM »
FBD, I know some "Mikey's" that became "Michael" when they got past middle school, "Johnny's" who became "John" or "Jack", "Joey's" who became "Joseph".  William Wallace for all we know could have been Wullie Wallace as a boy, but it is William.  All I am trying to do is verify that William Watson's name as a professional was just that.  I think "Willie" has been accepted as his name without much if any credible basis. 

The cow is not out of the barn...it is as simple as correcting it where it appears, as Belvedere, Hacienda have done, and Orinda will do.

Golf architecture writers such as Tom for volume 3, Brad Klein, Ron Whitten, Joe Passov and Geoff S hopefully will give consideration to this going forward.

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2015, 03:47:52 AM »
Saying he was known as William in "all" contemporary reports is incorrect. A quick search on Newspapers.com returns the earliest reference to Willie Watson in the 1/4/1900 Chicago Inter Ocean, which covered golf thoroughly. There are far more references to William Watson.


But best of luck finding a really good picture of him.


Besides a random search off Newspapers.com, what other research have you done on William Watson, as well as the rest of his family?


I've warned many on this before, as newspapers are subjective and sometimes, like The Architects of Golf/The Golf Course prone to small errors that lead to many misconceptions. I myself, along with Tony Pioppi, as well as the late Tom MacWood tirelessly and endlessly have researched Watson, not just in newspapers, but also in magazines, periodicals, microfiche, club records that requires going the distance beyond what you an find on the internet. We are talking hours and hours of research. 


The man went by one first name, WILLIAM. His birth, death certificate and obituary reads WILLIAM.  The advertisements for his business, he went by WILLIAM.

Further, TomMacWood was the first to find out he went by one name and that was William.  Another researcher I know who has found out that he didn't like going by the name of Willie. Now, if you would like to go against three (actually, now two) of the best researchers I've ever come across, then feel free to start reporting your findings.



  ≤≤≤≤≤≤≤≤----------William Watson
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 03:53:36 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2015, 10:55:05 AM »
Tommy:


Tim wasn't making any kind of statement as to what name Watson preferred.


He was simply stating that there were contemporary reports that called him Willie, which is true, even if those reports did so in error.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2015, 12:10:26 PM »
It almost seemed a colloquialism to call immigrant Scottish pros at the time by some endearing informal title, likely in an uncertain attempt to somehow embrace the roots of the fledgling game in America.  Witness "Benny" Sayers, "Scotty' I'anson, among many others. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2015, 05:36:16 PM »
Hi Tommy,
   I've written two books on Chicago-area clubs with Watson courses. Westmoreland, where the members didn't know Watson was the architect until I discovered it, and Olympia Fields, where he designed the second of the original four. Westmoreland's may still be available from that club; Olympia's will be at the club next month. Using an ad for Watson's services missed the cut in the final design, and yes, he was William in that.
   I've gone the distance myself, thank you. Thus my factual findings on his being called Willie – in the minority, but called that nonetheless – while he was around.
   But thanks for telling me how to go about my business in a condescending and sarcastic way without having done any research on me.
   By the way, that's a fine photograph you've found. Best of luck to you in future research.
   And Sven, thank you for reading my post properly, and the kind words. The best to you!
Tim
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 09:59:43 PM »
Tim, thanks for your comments.  You'll note that my original post had the condition "or at least all that I have seen."  I appreciate the fact that you pointed out an account in the 1900 Inter Ocean that used "Willie".

Which form of his name did you use in your Westmoreland and Olympia Fields histories?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2015, 11:26:54 AM »
Tim,
I don't doubt your resolve for it--and I can say this--I'm not just speaking for myself but the others who I feel are better at research then I am. Thats why I may sound this with a voice of sarcasm, out of complete respect for those that I know really researched the subject matter and from what I think is simply those that.


Its simple: Going off of newspaper accounts can and is many times misleading--and that's usually what starts the wheel of factual inaccuracy in motion. I can give many examples.  I misread that in your post and I apologize.


Let me know if you would like a better, larger photo of Watson.  I can certainly give that and more to you if your going to have a need for publication--so we can set the record straight on who this great Golden Age architect really was.  I'm finding out that he was a lot better then he was given credit for.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2015, 01:05:08 PM »
Kevin,
    I used William in both cases.
Tim
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: W. Watson
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2015, 01:07:22 PM »
Tommy,
   Thank you for the apology. Best to you in the new year.
Tim
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back