[Sean_A]

Duncan I appreciate Deal is at the higher end of clubs but interestingly since the recession in 2009 our green fee rate is £50 higher but revenue has remained steady and membership is very strong possibly because it's very good value against the green fee multiplier. We even raised the joining fee for country members with no adverse effect on applications.

I didn't agree with raising green fees so steeply but was proved wrong.

Chappers

I believe your club raised fees with long term purposes in mind.  A lot has been done to the course and house with that expected cash intake.  These are good reasons to raise fees if you ask me. 

Ciao 

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean it would be fair to say all golfers had their golf too cheap at Deal for many, many years and we have invested heavily in the past 15 years, partly through ambition and partly necessity.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

Nearly all golfers in Britain have had golf too cheap at the expense of future health.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I think maybe we have been talking at cross purposes. Players generally do not chose courses due to VFM but rather whether they enjoy playing them. Having said that, it is interesting to be able to compare what you are getting for your money from course to course. VFM is not about deciding which is the best course to play.

As to your comment

Nearly all golfers in Britain have had golf too cheap at the expense of future health.

I find this to be a totally alien attitude and I suspect very few would agree with you. I for one feel golf is a sport open to all levels of society from the very wealthy to the working class and even unemployed. From the very old down to the very young. It certainly is not and should never be only for the better off and thankfully in the UK this is not the case.

The only people who might be accused of getting golf too cheaply are those course rater bagging freebies

Jon

[Sean_A]

By too cheap I mean golfers have been paying for what it costs for the immediate round without putting away any money for infrastructural investment.  Golf always costs more than immediate costs if the long term health of  club is important.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Value for money.


Gold Digests recently advised No 1 course in the World, Royal County Down, has a full summer season midweek morning greenfee price of £200 for 18-holes.


Does this represent good value for money? Would you pay this?


If not, what would be your 'value for money' price point to pay to play 18-holes at RCD on a mid summer midweek morning?


£175? £150? £125? £100? £75? £50? Less?


Atb

[Sean_A]

Atb


£200 is well outside my comfort zone for Co Down.  I could see paying ~£125 once every few years...thats about it. 


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Value for money.


Gold Digests recently advised No 1 course in the World, Royal County Down, has a full summer season midweek morning greenfee price of £200 for 18-holes.


Does this represent good value for money? Would you pay this?


If not, what would be your 'value for money' price point to pay to play 18-holes at RCD on a mid summer midweek morning?


£175? £150? £125? £100? £75? £50? Less?


Atb

No. Do as I did and play twice over two days and stay the night in the Slieve Donard in March for the same price.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I am in agreement with what you said in post 129 though any properly run club should have this factored in.

Thomas,

it is important to understand that VFM is not the same as what you are prepared to pay for it. I do not think any course is worth more than about £80 from a VFM perspective but would probably pay more for a one time play of a course that had a high reputation such as RCD. However, £200 is way outside what I would pay for it unless it was a deal such as Ryan talked about.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I am in agreement with what you said in post 129 though any properly run club should have this factored in.

Thomas,

it is important to understand that VFM is not the same as what you are prepared to pay for it. I do not think any course is worth more than about £80 from a VFM perspective but would probably pay more for a one time play of a course that had a high reputation such as RCD. However, £200 is way outside what I would pay for it unless it was a deal such as Ryan talked about.

Jon

Jon


If properly run clubs factored in the future they wouldn't be in a mess!  Hence the reason golf was too cheap for far too long.  For sure there is a fine line between a club having too much and simply being in a position to waste reserves...which most clubs will surely do given the chance.  The bottom line is clubs are not run for the future or with forward thinking.  Golf clubs are very reactionary and in these times that is an approach that will not often fare very well.


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Value for money.


Gold Digests recently advised No 1 course in the World, Royal County Down, has a full summer season midweek morning greenfee price of £200 for 18-holes.


Does this represent good value for money? Would you pay this?


If not, what would be your 'value for money' price point to pay to play 18-holes at RCD on a mid summer midweek morning?


£175? £150? £125? £100? £75? £50? Less?


Atb

200 lbs for RCD, ranked #1 is an absolute steal, given what most would pay to play the course ranked right behind it [size=78%].[/size]
Someone spends thousands to cross the pond and then balks at $300 to play the #1 course in the world?
Those who live in Ireland and the UK are spoiled by an incredible amount of great 1st and second tier courses. No doubt the BEST value lies in the second tier courses, as well documented on the value for money thread, but value is in the eye of the beholder, especially if he's never played the course and has dreamed of playing it for years.


Lately I avoid nearly all the so called top tier courses, ironically not because of paying the green fee (I'm comped as a PGA)but mainly because if a course is getting such a high fee, the culture and/or hoopla tends to be not my flavor, but I certainly understand why people want to pay the fees to play the courses they've heard of.

[Sean_A]

Thousands to cross the pond?  You must travel in a way unfamiliar to me  .  The way I travel, if I paid $300 a pop, in a few days that would be my flight cost. So yes, the green fee makes a big difference to me.  Though I spose I could stand to go without five or ten meals  .

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting variety of answers.


Folks in different parts of the world do however, earn different income levels and have different social expectations, which can effect things like your personal idea of value for money and the price point you may be prepared to pay for something, plus if you've saved up for years and travelled a long way on a once in a lifetime trip I can see why you might be prepared to splash the cash. But for UK dwellers paying out of their own pocket (ie no business golf freebee's) the price some of the biggies charge is a big wedge of cash, although you can't blame them for charging it if some are prepared to get their wallet out of their pocket.


Atb

[jeffwarne]

Thousands to cross the pond?  You must travel in a way unfamiliar to me  .  The way I travel, if I paid $300 a pop, in a few days that would be my flight cost. So yes, the green fee makes a big difference to me.  Though I spose I could stand to go without five or ten meals  .

Ciao

Sean,
You know me. As frugal as they get.
In fact my recent 10 course trip to Ireland was done for under $1700 including $900 in airfare, 6 nights lodging, car, pubs,and meals.


When one "crosses the pond" he doesn't sleep in the streets and walk to the courses without eating, and his green fees aren't comped as mine are, and I would bet he stays in hotels far more expensive than the shared Air B &B's I stay in, and doesn't drive a shared manual transmission car.


So "thousands" to cross the pond and play golf is a conservative estimate, and I'd guess the average Carr golf tourist pays 2-5 times what I pay in total on a 10 course excursion.
Ask your UK friends if they'd pay $300 to play Augusta, Shinny, or Pine Valley(both ranked behind RCD) without a member invite on a golf trip to America where they've already spent "thousands".


NO ONE is suggesting you pay $300 a pop every round and match what ultimately is only a small-medium component of your travel budget (airfare).
Unless there are multiple $300 courses ranked number one in the world near RCD, it wouldn't be a consideration anyway
I am suggesting that one paying $300 for a one time play of the TOP RANKED course in GD's rankings would be good value for someone who's never played it compared to other courses on the list in the grand scheme of the real cost playing a distant course in a foreign country, especially paired with a series of other nearby courses(think Donegal) which would bring the average green fee down close to $70-80 per round.


To be fair, once one has played RCD, or any other great UK/Ireland course, there are many other courses that present better value(to you and I) in those areas, but who can put a price on never playing a course you've dreamed of playing, especially when you've already spent considerable $ to be there.


Besides with your Socialistic tendencies re practice and handicaps, you could win it back anyway once you returned to form which I guess would be a nice splash of capitalism.  
Which reminds me per the other thread, the ultimate ticket for Socialism and God on your side would be a Sanders/Huckabee ticket

[Sean_A]

Jeff

Well, if you are putting yourself in the hands of an expensive travel agent then yes, paying $1500 a week for green fees on $5000 trip is not the end of the world.  However, I suggest that that sort of costing for a week is very expensive and not the sort of thing most golfers would entertain.  You hang out in an uber rich area so perhaps your touch stone is wharped  I am assuming guys are going on a golf holiday...so many of the costs are similar no matter where one goes.  Again, if a guy wants to drop $250 a night on hotels he is likely doing that no matter where he goes.  Flights and green fees are two big stand out items which can be better controlled and saving $700 in fees over week is significant for many, many golf tourists.   

I don't know about my friends, but I would drop everything if invited to Augusta National...I would have to find a way to make it work.  I can't say that for any other course, though I would stump up for Pine Valley and National to name a few expensive places....and for a return to Merion.  Some courses are worth more to me than others.  So sure, I can understand folks paying $300 for Co Down...I mean enough do don't they?  But that sort pf price is not working on me for Co Down. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Jeff, does Tom H know you're proposing him for the veep slot?

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

Well, if you are putting yourself in the hands of an expensive travel agent then yes, paying $1500 a week for green fees on $5000 trip is not the end of the world.  However, I suggest that that sort of costing for a week is very expensive and not the sort of thing most golfers would entertain.  You hang out in an uber rich area so perhaps your touch stone is wharped  I am assuming guys are going on a golf holiday...so many of the costs are similar no matter where one goes.  Again, if a guy wants to drop $250 a night on hotels he is likely doing that no matter where he goes.  Flights and green fees are two big stand out items which can be better controlled and saving $700 in fees over week is significant for many, many golf tourists.   

I don't know about my friends, but I would drop everything if invited to Augusta National...I would have to find a way to make it work.  I can't say that for any other course, though I would stump up for Pine Valley and National to name a few expensive places....and for a return to Merion.  Some courses are worth more to me than others.  So sure, I can understand folks paying $300 for Co Down...I mean enough do don't they?  But that sort pf price is not working on me for Co Down. 

Ciao

Sean,
because you've PLAYED RCD! and have so many great choices!
Otherwise you would drop everything for it.


Of course it doesn't work for you or me.


But for a punter from nearly anywhere he would plunk down that in a heartbeat-especially compared to Pebble (ranked below it) at $500.
With what I see punters pay for wine and dinner, I would think $300 to play #1 in the world for something they are passionate about, a steal-especially given the unavailability of the courses ranked 2-4
Conversely, I would never pay $300 for a dinner, even for 2, though that's about the going rate out here, in London, or New York.




I grew up in Augusta and jumped the fence many a time so I might not find value in the going rate (about $10000) before that member got busted

[Sean_A]

Jeff


No, I wouldn't drop everything for RCD even if I hadn't played it.  I still haven't played Kingsbarns (which I really want to see) simply because of the cost.  Just because its there and wonderful doesn't mean I will jump on it.  I ain't ever going to pay full whack for Pebble and thats fine...it just doesn't interest me that much.  Heck, I absolutely think Formby is awesome (top 20 GB&I for me) and I like it more than Co Down, but there ain't no way I am paying full whack.   


I also think a lot punters would not pay £200 for Co Down. 


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Jeff


No, I wouldn't drop everything for RCD even if I hadn't played it.  I still haven't played Kingsbarns (which I really want to see) simply because of the cost.  Just because its there and wonderful doesn't mean I will jump on it.  I ain't ever going to pay full whack for Pebble and thats fine...it just doesn't interest me that much.  Heck, I absolutely think Formby is awesome (top 20 GB&I for me) and I like it more than Co Down, but there ain't no way I am paying full whack.   


I also think a lot punters would not pay £200 for Co Down. 


Ciao

i agree with all of the above.Ironically I haven't played RCD in years as its a bit stuffy for me.


Just remember you have options to play these courses during discount periods, and you live near enough where you know it's not a once in a lifetime opportunity.
the tourist traveling during (hopefully )good weather season has to pay rack rates.
No American has ever heard of Formby so of course they wouldn't pay $300.
RCD is #1 IN THE WORLD on GD's list-that is value compared to what one would pay to notch his belt on any other course in the top 2-10.
Even if it was available-which it isn't without being with a member.


I read posters regularly stating they stay at The Slieve Donard ($241 in peak season for a double bed) and no doubt another $100 for dinner-throw in caddy and there's another $100.
$300 to play the reason they crossed the ocean (RCD) is good value, even if you and I personally deem it too much $ for US to play.


If I had to pay the $300 I'd eat in a pub , share a room in a B&B, and take a trolley
Then it would be a value package


Me I'll take Portsalon at 40 euro(full price) or $43 (or comp in my case)

[Sean_A]

Jeff

Yes, I saw RCD last after the proshop caught on fire and the club was still snooty...made us use a visitors bar.  Never been too bothered about going back.  Trust me though that I am not getting on a plane to play RCD in the winter  on cheap rates ...well, at least I wouldn't organize it    I am far more keen to see what Ally does with Strandhill and what happens to the Valley Links. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

RCD is number one on one very flawed list. At least my number one has the door number to back it up!

[Ryan Coles]

I find myself perusing the GD list thinking how over rated the Open courses are in the ranking. But on the other hand thinking RCD can't be number one - never held an Open (even though it's way better than the Open courses I have played.) only the best of us are not swayed by these things probably.

In the same vein Formby to my mind is the best course in NW England but again the Open factor sees it put too far down most lists.

The open certainly leads to reduced VFM.

[jeffwarne]

I find myself perusing the GD list thinking how over rated the Open courses are in the ranking. But on the other hand thinking RCD can't be number one - never held an Open (even though it's way better than the Open courses I have played.) only the best of us are not swayed by these things probably.

In the same vein Formby to my mind is the best course in NW England but again the Open factor sees it put too far down most lists.

The open certainly leads to reduced VFM.

Ryan,
While I conceptually agree with you re The Open inflating the price and ranking of courses, who's to say what value is.
for you and I it may be different, but for someone who wants to report back home to his buds that he played X,Y, and Z Open course and relive that moment every time the Open is staged there, 100-200 pounds is certainly better value than he'd find in the US, especially given that he has little chance of access to the top US Open privates in the US, and at a UG or charity auction rate far higher, and usually in off peak seasons and conditions.


I personally find value in off the path gems, as much for the warm welcome,culture, scenery, and discovery of the club as for the quality of the course itself.
 But that's easy to say once one has played the Open courses.(in my case I've only played TOC, Troon, Lytham, Hoylake, Prestwick, Muirfield, Turnberry-though I must say I do want to play RSG)
I will say last year during the Open last year I had a tee time at Carnoustie with my son but at 160 pounds each I opted to cancel. part of that is because I am usually comped, and part of that is because I really wanted to play Forfar-which cost exactly 7 pounds for both of us.


Interestingly, other than TOC, I really don't look to return to any of the Open courses other than to expose my son or another friend. There are just too many fantastic yet to be discovered courses/experiences to be had in the UK and Ireland to que up with the masses and play the Big guns.

[Thomas Dai]

Here's the 'Next 50' follow-up to the previous Top-100 under £100 listing in the UK's National Club Golfer magazine -

......from page 55 on the following link.......

http://html5.nationalclubgolfer.com/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=National%20Club%20Golfer&pubid=d6c7c9df-8c1d-4826-9ddb-9acdbdeace27


Atb

[Niall C]

Jeff/Sean


Interesting discussion particularly as I'm flying across the Atlantic to play Pebble Beach in a couple of months and haven't yet played RCD. What does that say about me 


Niall

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