New Rankings of GB Courses by "Value for Money"

[Thomas Dai]

I think the point Niall is making is made when you flip your point. If you were to halve the number of greenkeepers at Dornoch do you really think it would drop out of the top 25? I do not. I personally think that the few extra greenkeepers only improve the presentation but have no effect on the actually quality of the playing surfaces and overall standard of the course. Is it worth that extra £100K to have the cutting lines crisp all the time. As links golf is about blending one area seamlessly into another I for one do not greet this Americanisation of the presentation of some of our top links courses nor the hike in the price that comes with it.
Jon

Spot on Jon. Too many higher echelon links courses are OTT with the manicuring etc so some nice aspects of playing them out of the usual main playing season is that the price is both lower and that they are also a bit less perfect, a bit more realistic, but still fine to play.


Atb

[Michael Whitaker]

I see, however, that they accomplished their main goal with the list ... there must be thirty advertisements from clubs that made the new top 100.

Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I'm sure the clubs will enjoy the extra play and income that will come from their ads being seen by an interested audience. These are commercial ventures after all, aren't they?

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm so glad to see Silloth get this recognition. It is truly one of the greatest pleasant surprises of my golfing life. Our Buda Cup there was off the chart. Of all the places we have visited I'd put Silloth at the top of the list for a repeat if that should ever come up. Of course, it would have to be scheduled during the beer & cider festival to entice Eric Smith! 

[Sean_A]

I think the point Niall is making is made when you flip your point. If you were to halve the number of greenkeepers at Dornoch do you really think it would drop out of the top 25? I do not. I personally think that the few extra greenkeepers only improve the presentation but have no effect on the actually quality of the playing surfaces and overall standard of the course. Is it worth that extra £100K to have the cutting lines crisp all the time. As links golf is about blending one area seamlessly into another I for one do not greet this Americanisation of the presentation of some of our top links courses nor the hike in the price that comes with it.
Jon

Spot on Jon. Too many higher echelon links courses are OTT with the manicuring etc so some nice aspects of playing them out of the usual main playing season is that the price is both lower and that they are also a bit less perfect, a bit more realistic, but still fine to play.


Atb

I must run in different circles because I am dying to see courses in top nick...if I am lucky this happens a couple times a year.  Most of the time even big dawgs are indifferently presented.

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

Come on, Sean, you know what they mean. Too many courses are chasing the American Dream of perfect presentation and losing the "natural" nature of their look. It is happening at a LOT of links courses, for example in the Highlands where Castle Stuart is driving the market to higher and higher prices. As prices escalate customers expect better and better conditions, which cost more and more money to maintain with larger and larger staffs. A bit of a vicious cycle that tends to price the average person out of the market. When I joined Deal six years ago the weekend guest fee was £75-80. It is now £150! The course has made great strides in improving its condition during this time and I enjoy the "new" status it has attained, but I've been shocked watching the rates creep up every year... as they have at nearly all highly rated courses. These "bang for your buck" lists help the average golfer find good value whereas the corporate outing doesn't care what it costs to entertain customers. It's the Pebble Beach syndrome.

[jeffwarne]

Come on, Sean, you know what they mean. Too many courses are chasing the American Dream of perfect presentation and losing the "natural" nature of their look. It is happening at a LOT of links courses, for example in the Highlands where Castle Stuart is driving the market to higher and higher prices. As prices escalate customers expect better and better conditions, which cost more and more money to maintain with larger and larger staffs. A bit of a vicious cycle that tends to price the average person out of the market. When I joined Deal six years ago the weekend guest fee was £75-80. It is now £150! The course has made great strides in improving its condition during this time and I enjoy the "new" status it has attained, but I've been shocked watching the rates creep up every year... as they have at nearly all highly rated courses. These "bang for your buck" lists help the average golfer find good value whereas the corporate outing doesn't care what it costs to entertain customers. It's the Pebble Beach syndrome.

+1 and most courses look WORSE for it.
It was once an outdoor game

[Ben Stephens]

I'm so glad to see Silloth get this recognition. It is truly one of the greatest pleasant surprises of my golfing life. Our Buda Cup there was off the chart. Of all the places we have visited I'd put Silloth at the top of the list for a repeat if that should ever come up. Of course, it would have to be scheduled during the beer & cider festival to entice Eric Smith! 

Eric Smith + Cider (or was it Scrumpy?) = Not a good match LOL. I agree with you Mike re: Silloth it was awesome and tough.

[Sean_A]

Whitty

To which kind of work for unnecessary preening are you referring? I don't come across a lot of preening on the courses I play...I am clamouring for better conditions (as my many posts above attest). The only thing I can think of which may be unnecessarily expensive for the results are revetted bunkers, but many people like that look even if it can be costly.  I am not sure we can attribute the increasing green fees to this though.  I think supply and demand is the main cause for the huge increase in green fee at the marquee clubs. There is also a rising the coat tails effect for neighbours.  People will pay the green fees so clubs will continue to increase them regardless of budgetary considerations. Bottom line, it is the fault of golfers that green fees are so high because they have shown a willingness to pay more irrespective of other considerations. 

For me, the work at Deal to encourage fescues and bents is not a scam to increase green fees.  I think it needed to happen probably because of many decades of neglect and/or harmful practices.  I have said it before, for decades golf in the UK was too cheap if a long term plan to mantain the proper playing characteristics and aesthetic sensiibilities of courses was in any way considered important. There is no question that many clubs went the wrong way in wasting money on water & feed regimes back in the day (and I still think so to some degree now), but if there is any hope of properly preserving links, heathland, downland and moorland courses money must be budgeted for long term purposes. 

We all have choices and can skip the more expensive clubs we know are taking the mickey. I like cheap golf as much as the next guy, but I also realize we must be realistic and more importantly, strive to preserve what made our courses great in the first instance.  There is no way I am buying that current maintenance practices are the cause of £100 plus green fees....that is nearly all down clubs getting their buck because they can...I can't blame them...especially if they are putting the money to good use in improving the courses.

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

Specifically on conditioning, what is it that lets the GB &I courses down in your opinion?

The few you felt were in top nick, what did they have/do that the others didn't?

[Adrian_Stiff]

There is always a bit of luck involved when you choose your day at another course.


Weather on the day plays a big part in the conditioning as well as the enjoyment and ability to take a good look at the design features versus the need to keep dry.


Weather the days before plays a big part. They might not have been able to cut wet or dry can be reasons in the UK.
How near are you playing to a maintenance procedure. A good tip is to check when the club championship is as this is a good indicator that the course will be attempting to hit the high notes.


Greenstaff can't have their golf courses 10 out of 10 every day especially in the UK. The need to feed, top dress and aerate are all minus if they are done on your day or close to it.


It is a real shame when you see some golf reviews curse and downgrade courses because there were holes in the greens or there was a lot of sand on the green or the greens were bumpy (and the review date was March 3rd).


A good rater will discount conditions and see beyond, you certainly should not be downgrading a course in the winter time, however a top 100 for good winter conditions might be another thought.

[Thomas Dai]

When a club has more than one course the lessor course is often not as well conditioned as the main course yet the conditioning of the lessor is none the less normally more than acceptable.
Atb

[BCowan]

Whitty


To which kind of work for unnecessary preening are you referring? I don't come across a lot of preening on the courses I play...I am clamouring for better conditions (as my many posts above attest). The only thing I can think of which may be unnecessarily expensive for the results are revetted bunkers, but many people like that look even if it can be costly.  I am not sure we can attribute the increasing green fees to this though.  I think supply and demand is the main cause for the huge increase in green fee at the marquee clubs. There is also a rising the coat tails effect for neighbours.  People will pay the green fees so clubs will continue to increase them regardless of budgetary considerations. Bottom line, it is the fault of golfers that green fees are so high because they have shown a willingness to pay more irrespective of other considerations. 


For me, the work at Deal to encourage fescues and bents is not a scam to increase green fees.  I think it needed to happen probably because of many decades of neglect and/or harmful practices.  I have said it before, for decades golf in the UK was too cheap if a long term plan to mantain the proper playing characteristics and aesthetic sensiibilities of courses was in any way considered important. There is no question that many clubs went the wrong way in wasting money on water & feed regimes back in the day (and I still think so to some degree now), but if there is any hope of properly preserving links, heathland, downland and moorland courses money must be budgeted for long term purposes. 


We all have choices and can skip the more expensive clubs we know are taking the mickey. I like cheap golf as much as the next guy, but I also realize we must be realistic and more importantly, strive to preserve what made our courses great in the first instance.  There is no way I am buying that current maintenance practices are the cause of £100 plus green fees....that is nearly all down clubs getting their buck because they can...I can't blame them...especially if they are putting the money to good use in improving the courses.


Ciao

+1

S,

This site in an essence proves your point which i agree with 100%.  People in the US would sell their mother down the road to get on X golf course.  Mid Pines a US example, since picking up members has raised their resort fees to $240.  I played it peak season 20 years ago for $80.  People don't think paying $240 is crazy for a round of golf, so go ahead and charge it if you can get it.  Funny is I believe someone posted on here that Pebble Beach was $25 to play in the early 1970's.  Did people have more sense back then?   

I'm sure there are plenty of Arble choices that are good nics.  He seems to be able to gauge value well.   

$1,000,000 maint budget with 15,000 rounds(conservative for year round golf) gives you $66.66 a round it up to $85 to pay for golf staff.   People fail to factor in F&B expenses and door greeters tripping over themselves.  They have no problem overlooking the elephant in the room to focus on Maint. even if the course is improving its drainage which would make the shoulder season more enjoyable.     

 

[Ryan Coles]

Ben

A million dollars is £650,000. Most uk clubs don't turnover this let alone spend that much on maintenance.

Your price per round is way off as well for all but the 1% ers.

[BCowan]

Ryan,

   $85 is 77 Euros.  I can afford $85 and I'm not a 1%er.  There are always going to be high end courses.  IMO it isn't due to rising maint costs, it's due to a group of people willing to pay that much money to play there.  My price per round is not off assuming F&B isn't losing their ass.  I think what sean is saying is there isn't anything wrong with trying to improve shoulder season conditions and those costs don't make green fees double. 

[Thomas Dai]

Ben,


You need to look into US-UK salary's, pension's, general living costs etc etc before attempting like-for-like comparisons.


$85/€77 is £56 in the UK and I suggest that for 18-holes £56 is high enough to turn most UK golfers off (although some who are better off financially or are very enthusiastic might pay it on an occasional basis).


Atb

[BCowan]

Thomas,

   I don't pay $85 that much to play a public course.  If a course is private and allows outside play and has a high unaccompanied rate, why can't they charge it, if lemmings line up to play it?  Just like every town and city in the US has different cost of livings and so forth.  If UK golfers are turned off, don't play the course, I'm sure you have many courses that are very affordable.  Ur just upset that over sea's travelers pay ridiculous amounts of money to play some of your sought after courses.  If anything those people should help make certain clubs more sustainable and keep members dues from going up. 

[Adam Lawrence]

Anyone can charge what the hell they like, it's a free country. But that doesn't mean people will go play there no matter what the price. We are talking about whether it is good business to price like that.

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

   $85 is 77 Euros.  I can afford $85 and I'm not a 1%er.  There are always going to be high end courses.  IMO it isn't due to rising maint costs, it's due to a group of people willing to pay that much money to play there.  My price per round is not off assuming F&B isn't losing their ass.  I think what sean is saying is there isn't anything wrong with trying to improve shoulder season conditions and those costs don't make green fees double.

Price per round even for those who are members at top 100 courses won't be more than £45 or £50 for most. Membership of a very good course can be had for £1,200 - £1,300 in south / south west England and much less in Wales and Scotland.


Price per round means expenditure divided by number of rounds played. Not how much was paid twice in Scotland on a mini tour, your figures are way off for the uk. Your low maintenance vision is actually in the high end bracket here. 


High end falls into two categories. Those looking for return on their initial investment. And members clubs looking to subsidise the annual subscription. 


Sean ain't banging on the Sec's door at Burnham about the sharp rise in green fees over the past few years. He like all of us wants his membership subsidised by visiting players at times that don't impinge on him. When he plays away, he longs for the good ol days.


I'd suggest the sharp rise in greenfees at upper mid and high end is due to the following rather than market forces: members wanting their cake and eating it. Those at the better clubs can and do it. And due to better clubs being scarce and a treat, we'll keep paying the high Greenfees and the members get top 100 golf at nondescript suburban prices. 


Most clubs in this bracket are just breaking even and keeping modest cash reserves. They probably should charge higher subs and plan better for failing irrigation, dillapidated clubhouses etc. Golf clubs are businesses and even those owned by members should charge the highest obtainable greenfee to benefit the owner / member.

[Martin Toal]

I would be happy enough just to see 'Sean A's best value courses'. Leave out silly and statistically dodgy rating scales. Benign autocracy is always the best form of government.

[Sean_A]

Sean ain't banging on the Sec's door at Burnham about the sharp rise in green fees over the past few years. He like all of us wants his membership subsidised by visiting players at times that don't impinge on him. When he plays away, he longs for the good ol days.

In truth, Burnham's prices haven't risen that sharply in the past 10 years.  It must have been 10 years ago or more that the green fee was £65.  The market in the southwest is 5-10 years away of being capable of sustaining the £150 free for all seen in Scotland or London. 

Sure, I don't want to pay a ton to play away, but I am very picky about where and when I play just for that reason.  I am not going to give the Muirfield's, Birkdales Pebble Beaches and Pinehursts of the world their pound of my flesh because I think its a rip off...doesn't matter...they get plenty of people who will pay.  Thats life in the big city. 

Adrian...expectations of presentation is a sliding scale...the more I pay the more I expect.  I don't care if it is winter when a club charges £75 for a course in poor nick.  That is a lot of dosh and I expect good return for my money.  If a club can't deliver I will slap it. 

Martin...my value list would be exactly the same as my favourites because those are the courses that I really enjoy and would pay full whack to play at least once in a while.   

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Yes I agree, I too expect a lot for £75 though £75 and less in our winter is pretty much most courses, there can't be many at a hundred in the rainy season.

[Jason Topp]

Is Ladybank really that good?  I played in 1992 and recall enjoying the course but it has never occurred to me that it was a course that deserves to be listed on a ranking.

[Bob Montle]

Ladybank gets a mention. For me that is the one course that really jumps out. It's been many years since I played it but I recall a course overgrown with Christmas trees flanking what seemed to be each and every fairway. No doubt there was a very good course somewhere in there but frankly even if price was no object I would rather play any number of the lower ranked courses with cheaper greens fees.
Niall

Of the twenty odd "major" courses I have been fortunate enough to play in Scotland, I have to agree with you regarding Ladybank, as it was there I had the least fun and my worst score.   As a short and not very straight 18 handicapper, I was ending up in those trees about every other shot.  With no option other than knocking it back in the fairway and trying again.

If I come back next year, there are courses I want to play again (N Berwick, Machrihanish, Brora, Fraserburgh) but not Ladybank.
I can find plenty of courses like that here in North Carolina!

[James Boon]

All this discussion about lists? What would Melvyn think? 

I quite like this list. The methodology isn't perfect but it gets rid of a number of usual suspects to top a list because of their cost and then the formula brings a few others to the top, raising their profiles, which can't be bad for them. Many of these are still going to be special trips for most UK golfers anyway.

I'm naturally chuffed that Notts (Hollinwell) makes it to number 12 and would happily play any of those above it at the drop of a hat, except perhaps Ladybank which isnt bad, but I'm never likely to be in Fife looking for heather and pines to be honest...

Cheers,

James

[David Davis]

I think indeed this is a good list and a valuable one for most readers of this publication. It's an excellent discussion piece has found it's own niche with the in the ranking lists and is likely at least if not more interesting than top 100 world ranking lists for their readers. On top of that yes it sells advertising and that's how they survive. 100 extra possible clients at least once a year. I'm certain that many of them could use the extra greenfee revenue generated from such an exercise and exposure.


Sean's involvement gives it a real sense of validity as far as I'm concerned. He knows his GCA and knows the courses extremely well.


Nice work Sean! Though I'm not sure how keen I would be to have been publicly outed as a US expat. You might end up being shut out of most UK clubs...


As for the Deal example of raising prices. I think it's a good thing. It's a private club, that opens it's doors to the public, supply and demand are working there, it's a brilliant course and seems to be getting more and more US traffic if I'm not mistaken. Upping the rates allows the locals a few more pints for putting up with 5 hour rounds from yanks trying to navigate the wind swept dunes.