[John Foley]

Pat beat me too it but I'd put a tee at 130 yargs and abandon everything behind it!!

[Jason Thurman]

Pat beat me too it but I'd put a tee at 130 yargs and abandon everything behind it!!

Where would this hypothetical 130 yard tee be placed? The hole tees off from the edge of a cliff. Would the tee be on the valley floor? Would you construct one by building it up 35 feet from the valley floor?


It seems unfair to point out the obvious issues with adding 100 yards to the transition from the previous hole, since the thread only asks replies to "fix the hole" and not "fix the hole without screwing up the routing." But I do think there's enough context provided by the photos in the thread to make it obvious that there isn't a great place to put a shorter tee.

[Josh Tarble]

I found this cool site that includes flyovers of each hole at Wolf including the 13th.  It gives you a better idea of the teeing grounds and constraints

http://www.holeflyby.com/wolfrungc


[quote author=Jason Thurman link=topic=62291.msg1480937#msg1480937 date=1450124276


It seems unfair to point out the obvious issues with adding 100 yards to the transition from the previous hole, since the thread only asks replies to "fix the hole" and not "fix the hole without screwing up the routing." But I do think there's enough context provided by the photos in the thread to make it obvious that there isn't a great place to put a shorter tee.


This is a good point too...the tee boxes are just steps off the 12th green.  Its just one of the high points of the good routing.

[Kalen Braley]

There seems to be plenty of space at the bottom of the hill for a 130 tee that plays to a blind green, so doesn't seem to be an "attack"

I'm going to guess the hole didn't originally have that strip of fairway at the bottom of the hill, but they had to put in after the fact so people could eventually finish it up.

P.S.  The whole looks like a nightmare....why the need for all those bunkers?

[Kalen Braley]

From 2005.

A forward tee or perhaps a drop zone in the valley, with a bunch of rough. 

[K Rafkin]

The one part about the hole that i do like is that it (at least from the aerial) appears as though long is a decent miss.  Offering up some space to miss long is under rated and not common enough.  Too many holes on too many courses have a "long is dead" policy.  This explains why I'm leaving both bunkers in front.  Although I'd usually like to have a decent miss short or long on such a long par 3, this par three now is about clubbing up and going for it, if you go long no big deal.  You're never going to make a hole in 1 on a long hole without enough club.

...And thats how i'd fix the hole.  However my intention was to make the hole better.  If you think the hole is "broken" because its too easy then id go ahead and throw a bakers dozen more bunkers in there.

I recall drinking a beer with a buddy of mine last summer and mentioning that "You know, there's all kinds of room to miss long on 13. That's the play - you have to miss long if you're going to miss." He shook his head and replied "Who in the hell misses long on a 250 yard par 3?" You're right though - long leaves a difficult up-and-down as there's a severe dropoff to the swale you can see behind the green from a satellite image, but it's an easy bogey. The two fronting bunkers are the best places to miss if you want to save par, but long is the second best and a good way to avoid a big number.


And trust me, no one thinks the hole is too easy, though it may be the easiest hole in the stretch from 12-15...

Thank you Josh for linking the flyover.  I now have a much better idea of what lies beyond the green.


Jason-Thanks to the flyover i now can see the kick plate to the left of the green.  While it may be a bonus to reward and errant shot now and then anyone who can intentionally hit that small of a target from 230-250 out can pretty much take aim at the pin.  I still like the idea of encouraging people to club up and go for it, so could some earthwork be done behind the green to reward the player who goes long.  How many holes have you played where the best way to save par is by going long over the green?  Its just not that common, especially on a par 3.  To me this would really make the hole better as well as more unique.  I imagine hole in one opportunities are going to increase if everyone is taking enough to too much club.


To revise my initial statement.  Those 9 or so unnecessary bunkers that are just there to wow guests can stay.  After taking a look at the Drone footage its pretty clear that if that if the bunkers weren't there that would all just be tall grass where you might not find your ball.  At least if you hit the ball into one of the 9 FU bunkers you will be able to find your ball (only to loose it on your next shot).  I imagine looking for your ball down there can slow down play so anything that makes finding your ball easier is fine by me. 


I still think this hole needs some chainsaw attention though. 

[Jason Thurman]

To revise my initial statement.  Those 9 or so unnecessary bunkers that are just there to wow guests can stay.  After taking a look at the Drone footage its pretty clear that if that if the bunkers weren't there that would all just be tall grass where you might not find your ball.  At least if you hit the ball into one of the 9 FU bunkers you will be able to find your ball (only to loose it on your next shot).  I imagine looking for your ball down there can slow down play so anything that makes finding your ball easier is fine by me. 

You know, I had never thought of this before but it's a great point. The hillside with all the bunkers is VERY steep, and certainly too steep to mow with a riding mower. Wolf Run generally does a good job of maintaining its "fescue" areas so that balls can be found, but it would take a lot of work to do it on this slope. Perhaps the 11 bunkers actually cut maintenance work and expense. Can it really be any harder to rake the bunkers once every few days than it would be to regularly flymow the entire slope and spray with herbicides to control growth? I don't know the answer, but it seems plausible that the bunkers help players find balls while controlling the maintenance expense involved in keeping it possible to find balls on that slope.

[Sean_A]

Nice Groupthink on this one.

Give everyone a free hand and they turn the hole into a bad Redan.

The thing is fine as is, I like the bunkers because they cause your eye to sweep left to right and make the target look a bit more intimidating.

I don't need a  bunch of ugly bunkers well short of a green 220 yards away in deep rough to create intimidation.

Ciao

[JWL]

I would tend to go with Sean's rendition or something like it, but I would definitely remove the two bunkers closest to the green and lower the green pad down to approximately the grade of the bottom of the right greenside bunker.
That would increase the kick plate from the left which would be all fairway over the hill.   But I would create a grass hollow to keep the runoff off the green and catch any shots that were played too far up the left side hoping for a great bounce in.   Of course, if that elevation of the green was too low for the tees, I would either raise the tees or green to make sure full visibility of a hole that long was possible.    Based on what Tom said regarding the players of this course, the drop off to the right of the green and the trees should be ample to make the recovery from the shot sprayed right with a long iron/rescue club challenging enough.

[Ken Fry]

For all the love being showered on this hole, I have to confess I've never liked it.

Yes, I love how this hole fits in with the routing and the two ridges the green and tees are located on.  No, I'm not a fan cosmetically of the overloaded cluster bunkers.  Until the recent advancements in ball and club offerings, I never held a shot on that green.

20 years ago the back tees on 13 played around 220-225 yards.  In 1995, that meant hitting a cutting #3 wood or a hard #2 iron which unfortunately both flew in relatively low as the ball tended to fly back then.  I couldn't hold that green with anything I hit.  I just didn't have the shot the hole called for.

Fast forward 20 years, welcome hybrids and solid, high spinning balls.  The tee shot still requires skill, but now with a hint more playability thanks to technology.

I enjoyed my last round at Wolf immensely, but 13 is still not included in my favorite holes there.

Ken

[Josh Tarble]

Ken,

Like many holes out at Wolf, I'm not sure I would enjoy it as much in the context of another course or routing.  But Wolf is one of those rare courses that you remember your bad shots far more than your good ones.  It makes you scream "I know I could pull that shot off if I had another chance" and 13 is one of the best examples of that.  I wouldn't love a steady diet of it, but I look forward to it every time I get the opportunity to play there.

[Pat Burke]

I actually hesitated before making my comment before.
I've never seen Wolf Run, so making a suggestion on improving something seemed absurd.


I love the look of the hole, and it looked like a great test for a mid iron!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, far be it from me to fix a Steve Smyers hole I haven't even played, but I appreciate the discussion.  For what its worth, I recall Jim Colbert discussing WR many years ago after his first play.  While he understood the course was tough, he specifically called out this hole as ridiculously tough, in a colorful way I still remember!

While not fair, if I was remodeling the hole, even in the context of the tough course mentality, I would still remove the left green front bunker and the top bunker in the hill and refashion and widen the kick plate.   It angles almost 90 degrees to the green, so you have to be near pin high to use it, and I think it would work better at an angle less than 45 degrees.  The right front bunker stays, and the golfer has the choice of a kick plate that gets him on the green, or firing at the pin when right. 

Granted, would play easier many days when the pin was left, but nothing wrong with that on a 230 yard shot.

[Tim Gallant]

I haven't played the hole, or the course, so don't know how this would fit in with the rest of the holes, but I would remove every single bunker, and mow everything to fairway height and remove trees surrounding the green. I like the green complex and how it sits on a plateau (alla Tandridge 17th). At its present length, this allows for a tricky, but manageable bail-out from short right.


As others have suggested, I would likely lengthen the green on the front left to be a bit more forgiving for those coming in with D, 3W.


Green, I would slope softly from right to left, to reward those who have found the front left with an uphill putt for a 2. Those who have bailed out will have a tricky chip depending on the pin placement, but not overtly difficult, and should be a straight forward 4 for the 15 handicap.

[Kevin Stark]

The high ground extends forward and to the left of the current tee complex. With a sufficient number of chainsaws, you could build tees over there and shorten the hole, though the angle of the current green doesn't lend itself to having a tee location there.


Speaking of dead trees, the tree on top of the hill left of the green lost about half its canopy this past summer. Hopefully the rest of it takes a dirt nap this winter.

[Ben Stephens]

After having read the different opinions and seen the image from aerial and perspective point of view. I think the current hole looks pretty artificial and suggest a large natural looking sandy wasteland and a fairway on the left so balls can be hit over the hill and run onto the green. This makes it a much more strategic and visual pleasing natural looking hole.

Existing


Alternative option

[Richard Hetzel]

I like the way that last render looks. I think even if this hole was a short par 4, most will struggle to make par here. I liked those flyovers as I got to see how much tougher the course looks with leaves on the trees!

[Kalen Braley]

I too like Ben Stephens version.

Still looks tough as hell, but at least you have a chance to make a long club work.  That current one is just ridiculous with the two fronting bunkers allowing for zero run up.

[Ben Stephens]

Thanks Kalen,

Another option on my proposal is to put a fairway right of the large bunker and take the tee back 30-40 yards to create a short par 4 which is more playable for the club/average golfer and shorten it into a par 3 for the professionals

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