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PCCraig

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2015, 04:44:09 PM »
It's not that hard to discern who the access whores are. I try to get rid of them. Can't say we always succeed but we keep an eye out for them.



"Access whores" are the least of Golfweek's Rater Program's problems.  ::)
H.P.S.

Sam Andrews

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2015, 05:08:58 PM »
Having read a lot of the golf press in recent years, it seems to be in a similar position to the movie press. Dependent on writing favourable articles to maintain "access". Thank heavens for GCA, is there anything similar to GCA for equipment reviews?
He's the hairy handed gent, who ran amok in Kent.

Sam Andrews

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2015, 05:47:47 PM »
Have you not found bombsquadgolf.com?

And without delving too far into the oldies-but-goodies files, have you ever stumbled upon the discussion group at http://www.hockeyfights.com/forums/ ?


This is an entirely new world! Is there a Schmidt search engine in development. Stuff Google.
He's the hairy handed gent, who ran amok in Kent.

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2015, 07:38:34 PM »
David:  Do you long for the good old days of the 80s and 90s where there was a samizdat trade in hockey fight tapes?  Dude, I was at the ATO house and this dude there had a tape of like 15 minutes of Doug Wilson fights....
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2015, 07:48:05 PM »
I wrote it, but embarrassed to post it.  It is something that seems to come to mind every so often, so why not?  I confess to less than full faculties at the moment.  Winter, golf depression, a whisky or two.  Also, an inclination to avoid philosophical rambling.         

I’m not a rater or have ever entertained the thought that I’d be qualified, on any level, to do so.  I suppose I’ve done some access whoring to see a few courses, but it’s always something I am more than willing to reciprocate in return.  From my lowly perspective, an important part of being involved in the golf biz is that access to colleagues is an important fringe benefit.  For most of us, we don’t make a lot of money and any profits we squeeze out of our operations are hard earned.  Even more so for our employees.  They aren’t getting rich doing what they do.  Almost always these folks are doing what they do for a love (addiction) of the game or the lifestyle it affords:  working outdoors in a beautiful place, in tune with Mother Nature, providing a field for pleasure, and so on.  Given the demands of the job, it’s a fairly sure bet that people working at a golf course play a lot less golf than the golfers they serve.   Sometimes these employees can’t even enjoy the golf where they work because the regular customers won’t let them just play golf without citing a laundry list of things the course needs to do to improve or the conditioning.  Therefore, the chance to play the game on those rare days off is often most enjoyable by going elsewhere.

I think this is understood on some level by most of us in business.  For example, we comp rounds and appreciate it when the favor is returned.  OTOH, I have zero problem paying retail rates when that is what the course feels it needs to do to remain viable.  Just expect the same treatment when you ask for the same from us.  As for raters, I’m not sure this is analogous.  I have little direct experience because nobody is clamoring to play our course.  There is a sympathetic exchange of values:  access for an objective rating, but, as we all know, there is no such thing as an objective rating.  Nobody at any course has an objective point-of-view either.  There is certainly no obvious brotherhood of poorly paid golf course workers.  Could be, but not until it’s established.  Yet somehow, I think there is a connection between the avid golfer/rater and the course wishing to be appreciated for the effort to present its product.  As much as I abhor course ratings and avoid commenting on threads concerned with such opinions, I concede that it is essential to forming a perspective about what we like.  Therefore, rating, or appreciating the infinite variety of golf courses, is a necessary evil in whatever form it occurs.  Folks didn’t arrive in the Treehouse by simply loving golf.  Golf isn’t enough.  There is also their intellectual need to justify the addiction into something else, something beyond playing the game, caring about score or handicap, camaraderie, competition, and, of course, measuring up to whatever initial motivations were there at the beginning of the addiction.  It’s a rationalization for an absurd obsession. 

Go ahead and call the raters pimps.  But, in fact, aren’t we all playing the same game for our own purposes?   I say cut them some slack.  Each to their own for justifying it in their own way.             

Steve Lapper

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2015, 08:08:24 PM »
I do find it interesting the seemingly contradictory issues going on here:

From the magazines perspective, they would want to get as many ratings as possible to have both a statistically reliable rating that would only get more accurate with an increased number of submissions. Additionally, if they now charge raters, they not only get money from that, but also benefit from an unpaid work force and extra money from publishing sought after course lists.

Meanwhile, the courses obviously care about these ratings or they wouldn't be willing to accommodate the raters on a frequent basis.  And in some cases, maybe they make the list and it generates a windfall of publicity and new memberships.  However, at least they are willing to "pay" for it in the form of comp'd rounds.

But in all this, if a rater travels a lot and plays tons of courses to get more submissions, which both the magazines and courses actually want, then somehow the rater is now is the bad guy aka the access whore??

Its this demonization of raters, who are actually providing the service that the magazines wouldn't get otherwise....is the part I don't get. And given they have to use their own money to travel, and now possibly pay to be rater, why is it such a stretch for them to get something out of it in the form of playing  an increased variety of courses.

Furthermore, what's the alternative to any of this?  Paid raters?  Then the magazines would surely cry and throw a fit.






Kalen,


  First off, an absolute acknowledgement that there a few (sic) intelligent guys who have a (sic) understanding of GCA and its history. Sadly, they are but a minority of the 1200 or so GD raters. As for spending $1000s on personal travel expenses, again only a relative handful do such under the mandate of seeing, walking and learning more about GCA. Many simply use it for access and the prospect of playing for free or a heavily discounted # somewhere that they would've otherwise likely never have bothered with. Some I know just like it for the pseudo-prestige it confers upon their opinions, or the (false) sense of entitlement they'd like to believe they deserve.


  I've visited number of places on the heels of GD visits that have complained that their raters "don't get it, or acted rudely or entitled. For the record, I'm sure that's another distinct minority subset of the larger 1200 (and unlikely to include those found here as GCA.com posters), yet asking them to now pay good $$ and charging a rather hefty fee to join the "elite" is somewhat disingenuous. I stand by my remarks that it will, at a minimum, cause moral and ethical dilution of analysis.


  In the interest of full disclosure, I am a panelist for another magazine that is unique in that we do not pay for the privilege, nor commonly use our rater status to access most, if not all, courses. Yes, we have a much smaller group and, like the others, want as many "eyes" out on courses as possible to produce "statically reliable ratings." That goal can be accomplished without making it a race for $$, but different strokes for different folks.


  Where I really disagree with you is that this is a demonization of raters. It's really just a reality check for a place that claims to be the best at rating courses, yet regularly skews itself in a variety of ways and now wants to charge a pretty penny for "the privilege." They believe only very good golfers can make accurate assessments. They statistically emphasize raw difficulty and ignore certain intangibles like quirk and fun. My belief is that most all courses are works of art and, as such, deserve analysis for everything that went into creating and presenting them.


  Let's face it....each magazine has their own agenda and the need to remain profitable sits atop most lists. I just think of all of them (and seems to be most reflected by their recent editorial shift)  GD is the New Pimp Daddy!

Cheers!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2015, 11:28:45 AM »
Steve,

I get where you are coming from specifically as it concerns Golf Digest and their specific policies, including this proposed change. There certainly appears to be a somewhat measureable value that can be attached to the entire process, and perhaps charging raters to weed out the disingenuous ones is a necessary step?  Just speculating here.

However, my comments were directed more at the attitudes towards raters in general.  I would agree there will always be a few bad eggs in every basket, especially when a system can be exploited.  However, in the absence of other viable alternatives, I'm not sure what the magazines expect to be different, especially when none of the rankings would be possible without the proverbial boots on the ground.

The magazine gets something, the courses get something,...and yes the raters get something.  Why can't this be a win/win/win all around?

P.S.  Kind of strikes me as ironic that the more diligent/successful you are with this job, (meaning the more you travel, and the more you rate) it seems the perception of you becomes worse and worse.  I won't mention any names, but I've seen the system of at least one rater, and I was extremely impressed at how well organized he was and how much he really really tried to give the best evaluation possible...

Jeff Taylor

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2015, 11:51:53 AM »
Raters should organize and demand compensation.
This is worse than amateur golf course photographers giving their work away.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2015, 11:56:38 AM »
Steve,

I get where you are coming from specifically as it concerns Golf Digest and their specific policies, including this proposed change. There certainly appears to be a somewhat measureable value that can be attached to the entire process, and perhaps charging raters to weed out the disingenuous ones is a necessary step?  Just speculating here.

However, my comments were directed more at the attitudes towards raters in general.  I would agree there will always be a few bad eggs in every basket, especially when a system can be exploited.  However, in the absence of other viable alternatives, I'm not sure what the magazines expect to be different, especially when none of the rankings would be possible without the proverbial boots on the ground.

The magazine gets something, the courses get something,...and yes the raters get something.  Why can't this be a win/win/win all around?

P.S.  Kind of strikes me as ironic that the more diligent/successful you are with this job, (meaning the more you travel, and the more you rate) it seems the perception of you becomes worse and worse.  I won't mention any names, but I've seen the system of at least one rater, and I was extremely impressed at how well organized he was and how much he really really tried to give the best evaluation possible...

Because it is handled poorly from the get go. For instance I have been told directly from those in charge at GD that panelists do not factor into their rankings outside the United States. They simply look at their sister publications, and others to determine where courses will fall. BUT we still receive calls and e-mails stating "I have been asked to rate your course for Golf Digest..." Wait, what? The head of your panel says you have no voice, but you have been asked to rate the course? By whom?

This and the entitled attitude of a fair number of panelists who, quite frankly, struggle to find the first tee let alone provide a meaningful review of a particular course makes the whole thing smell of Little more than a money making endeavor.

The relative few  who handle themsleves in a professional manner and actually know what it is they are looking at and thus are capable of providing a meaningful review of a course are marginalized by the masses who pay for access and discounts.

I propose we operators start rating the raters and publishing it on line.

John Q Rater: Visited unannounced December 11, 2015. Slapped his card on teh counter and demanded a comp. Managed to get one shot airborn on the practice tee, took 4 ball off #1, took 6 hours to play while consuming 11 Coronas (gracias!). Upon completion of his round, a tidy 118 according to the card saved by the outside staff, he wanted to discuss the shape of the bunker on hole 13 and wondered if it detracted from the design. A review of his card shows a quadruple bogey 9 on this hole... hmmmmmm.

I wish it were a case of a few bad apples, this seems to be more like a few well intentioned and schooled golf nuts versus the mass of discount/access seeking belt notchers and the greed of corporate America.

And God forbid you make a sound business decision and limit the availability to one of the foul mouthed czars... you'll drop like a rock. End Rant.

Full disclosure - I have a round scheduled at 10:20 Monday morning with a GD panelist - one of the good guys.  ;)



Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM »
Greg,

Very interesting point, and I actually agree with you for the most part.

I think golf courses should start refusing service to the bad apples.  If this visit is documented and reported back to the magazine HQ, then hopefully if that rater tried to submit a bogus rating it would be excluded as a data point and the magazine would now know exactly who to weed out.


Greg Tallman

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2015, 12:13:02 PM »
Greg,

Very interesting point, and I actually agree with you for the most part.

I think golf courses should start refusing service to the bad apples.  If this visit is documented and reported back to the magazine HQ, then hopefully if that rater tried to submit a bogus rating it would be excluded as a data point and the magazine would now know exactly who to weed out.

Sadly I think they are more concerned with their $750 and fees for mandatory panelist retreats. Quite simply, for 2 of the big 3, it has become a revenue stream (beyond sales and clicks) and little more.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2015, 12:20:41 PM »
Greg,

Very interesting point, and I actually agree with you for the most part.

I think golf courses should start refusing service to the bad apples.  If this visit is documented and reported back to the magazine HQ, then hopefully if that rater tried to submit a bogus rating it would be excluded as a data point and the magazine would now know exactly who to weed out.

Sadly I think they are more concerned with their $750 and fees for mandatory panelist retreats. Quite simply, for 2 of the big 3, it has become a revenue stream (beyond sales and clicks) and little more.

Greg,

If that's true, there's probably only one way to make an impact.

Private courses would have to deny all announced rater visits.

Jim Franklin

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2015, 12:39:46 PM »
Every time I look at that site I just laugh and laugh and laugh!

I wonder if that old thread comparing GCA and hockey fights.com is still in the archives or got deleted? 

Who here remembers when they, like us, were having a debate about how technology was ruining fighting because the new sweaters were too easy to stretch?  Or the roaring debate over the best French-Canadian enforcer of all time?  Good lord, you couldn't make stuff that up if you tried!  There truly is a niche site for every niche imaginable.

Tony Twist
Mr Hurricane

Jim Franklin

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2015, 12:52:36 PM »
Greg -

I wish courses would announce publicly the raters they have had problems with. I have heard some really atrocious behavior by some panelists that should be known by their respective publications. We need to get rid of the bad seeds.

As for me, I enjoy traveling and playing different places. I spend quite a bit on planes, hotels, rental cars, caddie fees, and golf fees. The times I get comped are nice, but not the reason I play. And when I don't get comped, the rating of that particular course does not get hurt. As a matter of fact, one of the places I was treated the worst is still one of my highest rated courses. There was no need to bash the course since the course did not treat me poorly.
Mr Hurricane

Jeff Taylor

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2015, 01:16:27 PM »
I hate to do this so late in the game but what value do these ratings bring and to whom?

Mike Hendren

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2015, 01:31:46 PM »
Bob Seger pretty much nailed it:
 
I used her, she used me
But neither one cared.
We were getting our share.

 

Save it Barney.
 
Mike
 
 
 
 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2015, 01:37:01 PM »
Who gets hurt are the local clubs that Rater's drop once they get the golden ticket. It's a win/win for everyone else.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2015, 01:43:47 PM »
Who gets hurt are the local clubs that Rater's drop once they get the golden ticket. It's a win/win for everyone else.


Everyone else including the retail consumer of golf? How so?

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2015, 01:53:58 PM »
Hmm, will be interesting to see if Golf magazine is paying attention. Given the market as set by GW and GD, I would guess that panel should pay $2,000-$3,000 pa.

As with all externalities involving a fixed supply that likely is under demand pressure (ie rankers seeking access to top-tier golf courses), the move to charge for ranker access mainly should be positive. Pricing ranker access into the offer should drive off the population that does not value the service, which in turn will reduce the access pressure on the most-sought clubs.

A better pricing model though would be two-tiered: a fixed annual fee plus a variable fee tied to each course to be ranked, perhaps according to the popularity of courses among rankers. The magazines could set a price schedule but the most efficient mechanism for price discovery is probably auctions: the magazine fixes the number of slots available to rankers during the year for a specific course. The rankers then bid, and each slot is filled from the highest bid on down.

Another wrinkle could be a supplementary points system, whereby rankers earn points for ranking courses outside the top 100. Earned points could be used by the ranker to bid on more-popular courses. Likely the magazines would want to ensure that points alone wouldn't be enough but just could supplement the cash portion of the bid. Think of the points as a discount, compensation for ranking courses that are not as highly sought after.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2015, 01:55:39 PM »
The retail consumer is helped because when he posts on Facebook where he played he gets more likes for each highly ranked course. Like the average dumbass could express in his own terms why a course is great or if any if his friends would care. It's just another stupid tax that goes unnoticed by the modern consumer. The likes are worth every penny.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2015, 02:07:00 PM »
Interesting comment Mark.
"As with all externalities involving a fixed supply that likely is under demand pressure (ie rankers seeking access to top-tier golf courses)"




So magazines have this supply of access to any and all golf courses which they should sell the the highest bidder / rater? Isn't this backwards? Don't the golf magazines have a vested interest in putting out a quality product so that readers will derive value from it? if so, then why wouldn't they pay for good raters?
Then we get to the course itself. What does a rater provide that their website or the state golf association rating group doesn't provide? Is the golf course saving on advertising?
What is the externality in this example?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2015, 02:13:08 PM »
Jeff,

The magazines need good writers far more than good raters. These panels keep the good guys employed.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2015, 02:16:08 PM »
Jeff,

The magazines need good writers far more than good raters. These panels keep the good guys employed.


Raters will that much impact should not be paying to provide it. I just can't get my head around the economics of this arrangement. Courses want this, right? Magazines want this right? Why would the laborers have to fund it?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2015, 02:17:32 PM »
Greg -

I wish courses would announce publicly the raters they have had problems with. I have heard some really atrocious behavior by some panelists that should be known by their respective publications. We need to get rid of the bad seeds.

As for me, I enjoy traveling and playing different places. I spend quite a bit on planes, hotels, rental cars, caddie fees, and golf fees. The times I get comped are nice, but not the reason I play. And when I don't get comped, the rating of that particular course does not get hurt. As a matter of fact, one of the places I was treated the worst is still one of my highest rated courses. There was no need to bash the course since the course did not treat me poorly.

Jim,

Obviously not all are bad but there are plenty that make it known they expect preferential treatment "or else", heck some spell it out rather clearly. That said I play a majority of my golf with panelists from the various publications and consider many to be good friends, no matter how badly they beat me or critique the course.

It would be nice if there were tighter protocols on how one presents themselves, what they should/should not expect... etc. I've had guys send wonderful hand written letters introducing themselves, providing background and explaining a bit about how they will go about their review/rating. Overkill? Perhaps but much better than the guy that makes his reservaiton on line, provides his CC in doing so then arrives, slaps his card down on the counter and announces to my staff that he doesn't have to pay because "I'm a rater!"  Sadly that is far more frequent than the nice introduction letter.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2015, 02:20:19 PM »
Jeff,

The magazines need good writers far more than good raters. These panels keep the good guys employed.


Raters will that much impact should not be paying to provide it. I just can't get my head around the economics of this arrangement. Courses want this, right? Magazines want this right? Why would the laborers have to fund it?

Magazines charge because they can. Raters pay because it is a great value. What is so hard to understand. There is not a Rater in the world who is not easily replaced.

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