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Tom_Doak

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What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« on: November 27, 2015, 02:07:30 PM »
I'm wrestling today with choosing golf holes to illustrate in Volume 3 in The Confidential Guide, and trying to think of the best hole to diagram in and around Chicago.


In general, I've been quite surprised how few holes in other areas where I think a diagram would enlighten the reader.  Most of what we identify as "great holes" owe to things that aren't so easily diagrammed, such as a beautiful setting, or a great green.


For example, Beverly has three par-5's I listed as great holes:  the 2nd, 7th, and 11th.  The first two are distinctive because of the use of the ancient shoreline, but it's a straight-across feature that doesn't really add strategy ... it would be better illustrated by photos than by a diagram.  And the 11th, on paper, is a remarkably dull-looking, almost straightaway hole.


What hole would you pick for me to illustrate?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2015, 02:15:27 PM »




May not be the best for your purposes, but its a good one.

I'm also a big fan of the 8th at Ravisloe, which is probably a better suited hole for your purposes with lines for safe play and rewards for heroic shots.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2015, 02:16:11 PM »




Now the 6th hole on the South Course.  May not be the best for your purposes, but its a good one.

I'm also a big fan of the 8th at Ravisloe, which is probably a better suited hole for your purposes with lines for safe play and rewards for heroic shots.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2015, 02:21:38 PM »
Sven:


Actually, someone sent a great picture of the South 6th, which is 99% sure to make the book as it shows nearly all the features of the hole well, including the elevation of the green.

Terry Lavin

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2015, 02:22:59 PM »
11 at Shoreacres would be on my short list because the landing area and greensite are dictated by the ravine and one might surmise the routing pivoted off of this concept.   15 at Olympia North  could work for the graceful turn around the upper level of the creek bluff and the way it connects the dramatic holes before and after it.  There are some great boundary/corner holes, like 14 at Chicago Golf Club. I'm sure an architect can really distinguish himself with great holes that come from modest beginnings like an adjacent roadway.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:28:19 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sven Nilsen

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2015, 02:37:26 PM »
11 at Shoreacres would be on my short list because the landing area and greensite are dictated by the ravine and one might surmise the routing pivoted off of this concept.   15 at Olympia North  could work for the graceful turn around the upper level of the creek bluff and the way it connects the dramatic holes before and after it.  There are some great boundary/corner holes, like 14 at Chicago Golf Club. I'm sure an architect can really distinguish himself with great holes that come from modest beginnings like an adjacent roadway.


Terry:


For Tom's purposes, 11 at Shoreacres has a bit of strategy (depending where the pin is), but 15 at OFCC has none.


6 at Skokie is a great example of angled bunkers and lends itself well to a diagram. 


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Peter Pallotta

Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2015, 02:43:43 PM »
I always find these 'inside baseball' threads fascinating. To me (and not to put words in Tom's mouth) the request implies that some/most golf holes are considered great not based on/primarily because of their "architecture", and that the qualities of truly great design/architecture are best brought to light not via words or even photographs, but through an architect's diagrams/drawing. And if that is true for individual holes, it must be even more true of/applicable to entire golf courses.
Peter
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:49:54 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Terry Lavin

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 02:44:52 PM »
Sven,

I've been overruled by worse...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 02:48:51 PM »
I always find these 'inside baseball' threads fascinating. To me (and not to put words in Tom's mouth) the request implies that some/most golf holes are considered great not based on/primarily because of their "architecture", and that the qualities of truly great golf holes are best brought to light not via words or even photographs, but through an architect's diagrams/drawing. And if that is true for individual holes, it must be even more true of/applicable to entire golf courses.
Peter


Peter:


I think Tom is saying the opposite, that there are great holes that don't lend themselves well to being diagrammed.


One of example I used, the 6th at OFCC South, has quite a bit of elevation change from tee to fairway and again to the green.  The image in the article I posted attempts to capture the falloffs around the green, but it is hard to do in two dimensions.


On the other hand, the 8th at Ravisloe's best qualities can easily be picked up by just reviewing the placements of the bunkers and the green.  There is a small amount of runoff in the fairway and a very gentle elevation change from tee to green, but you could easily figure out how to play the hole (whether by avoiding the fairway bunkers or by taking them on) by reviewing an overhead shot.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Peter Pallotta

Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 02:57:10 PM »
Sven - thanks, you may be right, and your examples provide good insights. (Btw, I had edited my post to refer to great 'design/architecture' being best highlighted via diagrams.) But I'm struck that Tom, whose own courses photograph so beautifully, would make the distinction in terms of design that is better 'described" by drawings than by words and pictures. Again, you are probably reading Tom right and I'm reading him wrong, but it struck me as interesting/instructive.
P
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 03:04:30 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Stephen Northrup

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 03:17:33 PM »
Tom, I would nominate #15 at Shoreacres as eminently diagrammable, with the creek, fairway bunkers, and multi-level divided fairway on the approach. Certainly a hole where one picture can't do justice to the hole as well as a diagram might.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 03:20:09 PM »
#2 at Shoreacres because of the ravine crossing and #12 the punch bowl at Chicago Golf

J_ Crisham

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 03:27:25 PM »
16 at Old Elm
3 at OFCC North
14 at OFCC North
16 at Medinah 3
9 at Butler

Jason Way

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 04:00:58 PM »
#3 and #15 at Onwentsia provide strategic choices through angles and bunkering that lend themselves well to diagramming.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 09:37:07 AM »
#14 Olympia Fields North
#11 Shoreacres
#15 Shoreacres
#7 Onwentsia
#2 Beverly
#2 Chicago

Matthew Sander

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 12:47:18 PM »
I think the 4th at Flossmoor with its myriad options off the tee would diagram fairly well...

Jud_T

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 12:56:09 PM »
Merit Club #3   ;D


I agree with the Rav #8 nomination.  Terry, while I love Shoreacres #11 the strategy seems fairly obvious and it makes for such a dramatic photo anyway.  Shoreacres #15 would be a better choice IMO if you can get a good enough drawing of it's subtleties.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Terry Lavin

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 01:26:17 PM »
I love 15 at Shoreacres but only mistakes wind up in the left fairway.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2015, 06:11:36 PM »
Well, hard to say as I dont know all the GCA requirements for a "diagram", but....I would say:


The 16th at Glen View Club


par 4, 400 yards, slight DL right down the hill to green framed by bunkers.


1. Tee shot - trees down right, 2 bunkers on left at 180 and 240 yards. Place tee shot conservatively to top of hill and player has 150-180 into green.


The more aggressive tee shot must have a fade or be hit down right side of FW. Miss left and ball is in FW bunker or, if it clears left FW bunkers, you go down a slope into rough with two large elms to deal with that otherwise are not in play. Miss right and you will find some trees or could be next to the original homesteaded farmhouse from 1840 that has been beautfully maintained with all brush and bushes recently removed.


Hit a strong tee shot and ball will crest the hill and release another 30-50 yards down giving the player a sand wedge into the green.


Two bunkers on L and R at 80 yards from green, one center bunker that makes player think that it is green-side, but is actually 10-15 yards short of green. Green has two more bunkers - one left, one right.


West Branch of the North Fork of the Chicago River lies behind the green traversed by an old stone bridge.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 06:18:29 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Aaron Marks

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 10:57:20 PM »
Sorry Jud and Sven, I'm just seeing #8 at Rav.  Please explain!  I've played that hole 1000 times (literally, my first memory on a golf course is that tee shot with my new Jr Cobra driver), so perhaps I'm stuck with an ingrained vision of how to play that hole.  To me there wasn't much strategy involved.  Just rip it over the bunker and aim for the middle of the green.  Never go long.  The left pin is tough to get at, but it's an easy two putt from the middle of the green, if I recall correctly.     


Jud_T

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2015, 08:00:21 AM »
Aaron,


If you're a big enough hitter to just bomb it over the bunker in all wind conditions and just knock it onto the middle of the green then I agree there isn't much strategy involved.  For the rest of the golfing population a little more thinking is require in dealing with the hazards on both the first and second shot.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Aaron Marks

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2015, 09:30:51 AM »
 I played this hole as a 8 year old and as a 18 year old, which is to say that I wasn't thinking much about strategy at the time.  Furthermore, I got around Ravisloe without much thought, not because Rav didn't demand it, but because I had played it so much that I had already (correctly or incorrectly), decided on what the best play was.   From the tips (which were added during the renovation), it's 210 to carry that bunker.  When I was younger, anything with a little momentum rolled right through that trap and into the rough  (not much sand or lip).  The renovation added some grass islands, sand and a lip.  It became a more formidable hazard but I was older and could usually carry it.  I guess what I'm saying is that I've never consciously layed up or went left of the bunker.  So to me, even if I did catch it a little thin and ended up in the bunker, it wasn't the result of a decision. 

For the approach, there is a pretty sizable bailout area right of the green and no feature of the green that makes that bailout area a particularly scary place to be.  So I guess it'd be a strategy to take advantage of the bailout area, but I don't think that it's anything special.  I've hit every chip into that green a bajillion times, so again, it wasn't like it mattered where I was because I knew what I had to do.

I remember my dad and I emptying our bags, trying to get from the ~40yard bunker onto the green.  Out of 20 balls, we put one on the green and 3 onto the street.  I've hit a drive from the 8th tee box into the water hazard on 7.  I know that it can be a dangerous hole, but I also know that looking at something for 15 years might, instead of allowing a person to see more through experience, actually limit what a person sees precisely because of that experience. I never, ever, ever messed around with the 40 yard bunker because I knew I couldn't get out!  I always tried to blast it over the bunker off the tee because I knew I could find the bailout area.  It's hard to see the hole through different eyes. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 09:39:06 AM by Aaron Marks »

Chris DeToro

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2015, 10:56:31 AM »
I think the 4th at Flossmoor with its myriad options off the tee would diagram fairly well...


I'll second this.  I also think the 14th at Flossmoor would diagram well.   Both of these holes have a lot of options off the tee and are great holes that aren't defined by a beautiful setting that add to the design of the hole thus making them more apt for a diagram

Ian Andrew

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2015, 07:44:13 PM »
12th at Chicago would be my own personal choice.


... but I also really like the 6th at Olympia Fields South too
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Dan Moore

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Re: What's The Most Interesting Hole in Chicago?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2015, 07:46:54 PM »
I'll chime in for the 4th at Flossmoor, in my opinion one the better strategic short par 4's in the area. Essentially a Tweedie original from 1899 with a terrific new green by Harry Collis in the teens that enhances the strategy and new bunkering by Ray Hearn it provides plenty of options for all classes of players. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin